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The Ten Offences, Day 4, Durban, South Africa
And now let us move on to the 7th, “to commit sinful activities on the strength of the holy name of the Lord”, so of course the point here is that as we note in our first little comment here, that the unlimited power of the holy names has already been discussed in regard to the 5th offence that we mentioned about, how you can’t commit enough sinful activity that just one chanting of the name “Krishna” without offence will not be able to eliminate all of that. So therefore some people may think that let us make a program, a systematic program of enjoying life, eat, drink and be merry and not eating prashadam and drinking prashadam or milk or whatever and enjoying kirtan but some other forms. So… people may think like this and then think that let us also chant the holy names and this will free us.
However, point number 3, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura says “if someone even contemplates relieving himself of the reaction of deliberate sin by exploiting the purifying strength of the holy name, he is utterly ruined and no amount of prayascitta will help him.” (Sri Harinama Cintamani 9, sinning on the strength of chanting the Holy Name, Being inclined to sin is nama aparadha) Prayascitta, means atonement. “Even after untold retribution in hell he will not be absolved from this mental nama aparadha” (Sri Harinama Cintamani 9, sinning on the strength of chanting the Holy Name, Being inclined to sin is nama aparadha) so this is really serious, this is very, very serious. Of course we don’t expect any of you; we know you… you all are committed devotees so we don’t expect you to break any of the regulative principles, so hopefully this wouldn’t apply so much to yourselves.
Ahh, however there is one interesting little twist to this and it comes up and we mentioned in point 5, it’s actually point 4 in fact, from seva aparadha to nama aparadha. This is explained by Viçvanätha Chakravarthi Thakura that actually we already mentioned that there are seva aparadha beginning with what… What is seva aparadha number 1? Show me you have learnt something? Entering the temple room with shoes or something… ya and it includes, I mean… the list of seva aparadhas include ahh… not reciting the pranama mantra out loud or at least audibly not that you have to shout but you know audibly and should be audible and there’s… there’s a number 60 or so specific seva aparadhas and right at the very beginning you may recall, right at the very, very beginning in fact it’s on the first page about, ahh… of our study guide. This is a quote from Srila Prabhupada which He says that, “if you commit some offence against the Supreme Personality of Godhead then if you chant Hare Krishna, you can be delivered from that”, and we did explain at that time you if recall that what Prabhupada is referring to then when he says if you commit offence against the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it’s the seva aparadha, beginning with entering the temple with shoes on or not to offering obeisances properly or different things like that, getting angry with people in front of the deity and you can read through them it’s worthwhile. So, ahh…Srila Prabhupada made the point that if you happen to commit any of these then you just chant… as you are already chanting Hare Krishna, you just carry on chanting Hare Krishna and the results of those will be washed away, ahh… in other words, they are not terribly serious really! However Viçvanätha Chakravarthi Thakura makes the point that if you commit any of these knowingly then, any of these seva aparadhas, they cease to be seva aparadhas and they become forms of the 7th offence, committing sin on the strength of chanting Hare Krishna. So now you know you are not allowed to enter the temple room with shoes on, anyway you knew that already, now you know you’re meant to say your pranama mantra out loud, so you know with knowledge comes a burden of responsibility, so you might argue… let me not read these list of offences (laughter) so I can very sincerely commit them without any intention and then it won’t actually be an nama aparadha however this is not actually a very good idea. You should be aware and you should avoid them and if you don’t, somehow or other you may, if it happens sometimes that the devotee just has to rush into the temple room to call someone out or something like that. You may have seen this happen, just left your bead bag there or something you just got to say good-bye to someone. You just duck in, (laughter) grab your bead bag and duck out without really offering your obeisances. These things happen sometimes or it’s an offence… anyway I won’t mention that one. There’s a few touchy ones there, like you are not meant to wear red or blue in front of the deity, are you familiar with that one? That one is there and how do we interpret that, well Srila Prabhupada didn’t apply that because particularly ladies and men perhaps sometimes, maybe with a pull-over or a jacket perhaps ahh… I am sure devotees wear red and blue sometimes but according to that list, it’s an offence, anyway Srila Prabhupada didn’t apply that so we don’t really worry too much about it. However the others we should really be mindful.
Then the last little point under the 7th offence is the need for vigilance on the namabhasa stage and let me just see what we have to say about that here. Ahh. Yes. So namabhasa, this clearing stage, we talked about that yesterday. It’s very important to be mindful of, we are meant to be on the clearing stage. Of course it will be nice to say we are meant to be on the shuddha-nama, pure stage of chanting in Love of God but we don’t really, you know expect that too quickly but at least we should be on the clearing stage and that means… The difference between the clearing stage and the offensive stage is that on the offensive stage, the different desires or non-Krishna Conscious ideas will enter the mind sometimes and on the offensive stage, we may sometimes entertain them. Yes. Some little idea enters the mind and then off we go on some little mental path, following that idea and thinking about it and wouldn’t it be nice and something like that, some material contemplation. So that’s the offensive stage. Now the difference between that and the clearing stage is that even though the mind is sometimes pushing and telling you, come on think about this… think about that… some nonsense but on the clearing stage the devotee says, “no”. Ya, the devotee says no and an emphatic “no” and even though the mind is talking away there but then the devotee remains fixed in chanting. Doesn’t mean that no desires, no ideas ever come into the mind, that’s the… that’s the pure stage were one is totally just swimming in the ocean of the holy name and just drowning in the ocean of the holy name and there is no question of material desire even… even entering the scene… even as a hint but on the clearing stage it’s understood that the pushing is there, pushing is there from the mind but the devotee is resisting and has become strong enough and purified enough to be able to resist and not just get washed away with the tide of the minds, desires and the strength of the mind.
So as far as vigilance then being required in the namabhasa stage then there are two things and this is important for us all as aspiring devotees, we are all trying to get it together. So two things are there, one is that you just just have to be very determined, that has to be there. But second this is recommendation from Bhaktivinoda Thakura that we must regularly seek the association of devotees and pure devotees, who do chant the holy name without offences and chant in their company. In fact Bhaktivinoda Thakura recommends that for at least an hour a day we should chant with advanced devotees even though you know you won’t chant all your rounds within an hour, if you are chanting all your rounds within an hour then you must know that… you are… it’s not really possible unless you adopt one of the deviant forms of the maha mantra like “the snick snick rama rama” (laughter). You’ve heard about that, I am sure you must have heard about that. One devotee was chanting something like that and Prabhupada’s presence and Srila Prabhupada was quite struck by it, and He found it quite amusing. He told them if you keep chanting like this you may go to snick loka (laughter) snick snick rama rama (laughter) or the Hare… we have the Hare Krishna maha mantra. I am sure you all have heard us mention before about the Hare Krishna mini mantra (laughter) the abbreviated Hare Krishna mantra. One of our dear devotees I won’t mention any names (laughter) sometimes chants Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare/ Hare Rama Hare Hare (laughter) and finishes his rounds quickly (laughter) anyway…so… yes. Yes we should chant very vigilantly if we are to come to or remain on depending where we at right now on the clearing stage ya and see the tendency towards sin is something that is quite deeply engrained for many, many lifetimes, so we really have to watch out for the 7th offence. So Bhaktivinoda Thakura recommends like that, that we should regularly, you may not always be able to but regularly we should chant in the association of advanced devotees. Ya and ideally on a daily basis, of course yourselves, many of yourselves at least as householders, that might be difficult. But the thing is, that as you advance more, probably of course as you advance more you will be become better association for each other anyway as family members but perhaps as you advance more than the devotees in the different areas may gather sometimes in each other’s houses, you know for an hour at least every day or every other day or something like this.
In some parts of the world, like in Russia where they have namahattas, they have a namahatta centre, they have one flat and it’s only used for the namahatta programs, someone may stay there just to keep it clean but otherwise it’s just for the namahatta programs. So in the morning many of the devotees, the namahatta devotees around, working people, they’ll come there, they will gather at 5:30 or 5 o’ clock or something like that, spend an hour or so before they go to work. You know this some practical thing which may be possible in order to… to help each other and associate, surcharge each other and this is very helpful, ya because one thing we should remember is that we are never alone, even when we’re alone, we are not alone and that doesn’t mean just because Krishna is there, us and Krishna are not alone. Yes, you know who is there with you? Your mind! Yes and unfortunately your mind is probably not very good association. In fact Bhaktivinoda Thakura compares the mind to Pütanä, the witch, she’d like to kill us but she looks very sweet. Pütanä dressed herself up like a very sweet young lady, extremely good looking, very, very beautiful but not a flashy type of beautiful lady but of very high character, very pure hearted sattvik type of young lady. She looked so nice that Mother Yashoda didn’t, when… when Putana went walking in to Nanda Maharaja’s own room cause they lived in separate rooms, even in separate parts of the house then she looked so sweet and nice that Mother Yashoda didn’t even ask her, “Who are you?”, “What are you doing in my husband’s room?”. She just let her go. So like this we may be a little… ah… too liberal with our minds cause your mind will tell you that, “We are good friends, we have been friends for a long time.” (laughter) “I always give you good advice, I am there when you need me”, and we may think “Yes, good old mind!” (laughter) But the mind is compared to Pütanä, looks very nice but then the mind will try to kill us, or kill our Krishna Consciousness. So in this way, we should try to seek the association of devotees on a very regular basis and chant in their association and that’s very important.
We haven’t been talking a lot about the remedies, Bhaktivinoda Thakura suggests some remedies. Of course we did also make the point, or Prabhupada made the point right at the very beginning that if you commit offences against the holy names then there’s no… you know you can’t ahh… it’s very difficult or even Prabhupada more or less said that it is hardly impossible to really address that. However Bhaktivinoda does talk about that and Prabhupada also elsewhere does say, particularly with Vaisnava aparadha, that there are things you can do. With Vaisnava aparadha, we talked about that how you have to very humbly go before the devotees and throw yourself at the devotee’s feet ahh… in regard to the 2nd offence the remedy, if you happen to get into demigod worship cause I see actually, I have seen in some of our devotees, not many but some of our devotees houses, here and there… ahh… they may have 2 altars sometimes or you know most of the altar is Krishna Conscious but just around the corner is you know, Durga or Laxmi or somebody or you know, actually we have seen it. So if someone happens to commit that offence then what Bhaktivinoda Thakura recommends is that you go in front of the deities and throw yourself at Their lotus feet and beg forgiveness. If you disobey the orders of the spiritual master, you are meant to go into His presence and ahh… admit your offence and in front of all the devotees you are meant to do that. If you blaspheme the scriptures you are meant to do the same thing make up… like you know make up like an altar with some of the scriptures on the altar an offer your humble obeisances and in front of the devotees make them aware of what you have done. So these types of remedies are there ahh… for most of these offences.
For this offence ahh… if you commit sin on the strength of chanting the holy names, Bhaktivinoda Thakura recommends that you go into the association of devotees and throw yourself at their lotus feet and beg for forgiveness and beg for help and the devotees of course are so merciful that if you beg for their help, then they will give you good advice and encouragement and treat you in a very merciful way, soothing words like this.
So that’s something about the 7th offence.
Let’s say something now about the 8th offence to, ahh… to consider… ahh… where are we? 9th offence, wait a minute… (it’s on the last page) oh it’s the last page okay. “to consider the chanting of Hare Krishna to be one of the auspicious ritualistic activities offered in the Vedas as fruitive activities, karma khanda” (9th offence to chanting the holy name) so we make the point, goloker premadhana, ( Hari Hari Bifale, From Prärthanä, Prayer to One’s Beloved Lord, By Çréla Narottama Däsa Öhäkura) goloker premadhana actually, d-h-a-n-a harinama-sankirtana (Hari Hari Bifale, From Prärthanä, Prayer to One’s Beloved Lord, By Çréla Narottama Däsa Öhäkura) This harinama sankirtana, the holy name has descended from Goloka as a great gift, premadhana, like that. “It’s descended from the spiritual world as a great gift of Love of God.”
Then we quote one very nice verse here from Caitanya Caritamrta which really makes it very clear. “”The holy name of Krsna is transcendentally blissful. It bestows all spiritual benedictions, for it is Krsna Himself, the reservoir of all pleasure. Krsna’s name is complete, and it is the form of all transcendental mellows. It is not a material name under any condition, and it is no less powerful than Krsna Himself. Since Krsna’s name is not contaminated by the material qualities, there is no question of its being involved with maya. Krsna’s name is always liberated and spiritual; it is never conditioned by the laws of material nature. This is because the name of Krsna and Krsna Himself are identical.” (CC, Madhya 17.133 translation)
This is a very important verse making it very clear, ahh…of course you all know this fact that Krishna Consciousness is transcendental but still a…a… possible variation on this offence which we may commit is if we start praying to Krishna for… ahh ya… praying to Krishna with some sort of material end in mind. Of course, you know, you may need some money to do some service for Krishna, even maintain your own family better in Krishna Consciousness so that’s… that may be acceptable up to a point but if we start… you know like really praying to Krishna for material things then it is basically an offence falling into this category in which we… we are equating Krishna Consciousness or trying to get from Krishna Consciousness the same benefits which are normally got from karma khandia, material things. “Give me a house and a car and a colour TV, om jaya jagadisa hare” yes. Ya, like that. So… ahh… in our cases we, we don’t really expect you, any of you to think that the chanting of Hare Krishna is actually a material religious activity. I think, I am sure you hear; I am sure you have all heard about it enough but this is a little twist on it. A little twist, a little subtlety that we may think of getting something material by the grace of the holy name, something beyond our real requirements, so this is a possible variation which might apply to us then we say… Ahh it’s actually meant to be point number 3 but the number got lost there.
The example of Kalidasa, the example of Kalidasa. Now Bhaktivinoda Thakura, when he explains this offence in Harinama Cintamani actually it’s…umm…it’s Haridasa Thakura in fact who is really speaking so he, he makes the point that if you commit this offence it indicates that you have gross material attachment. You know if you think that the holy name is just something like karma khandia or even in this more subtle sense. You are chanting Hare Krishna and you are praying to Krishna give me a new BMW. I could use it in Krishna’s service. (laughter) Give me a new Rolls Royce or something like that. Give me a new sari. Of course you may need a new sari (laughter) or whatever it might be. So, but the thing is when we start going a little over board, if we start going a little over board about desires on the bodily platform or I am this body at least in some subtle way, we are getting into that so Bhaktivinoda Thakura or Haridasa Thakura recommends, he makes a very interesting recommendation. He says that seeing this indicates you’ve come on the bodily platform what… he says what you should do is to counteract as a remedy for this, to cure yourself of this, you should find some Vaisnava who comes, at least from the…when he… before he was a Vaisnava comes from the lowest position in society that you could find you know whatever that might be the lowest you know in… in the Vedic context that would mean candala, mleccha or yavana something like that. Some devotee who was you know born in a certain family really, really, really low. You should find that devotee and then throw yourself at the lotus feet of that devotee and eagerly take the dust from that devotee’s lotus feet and then bathe that… the feet of that devotee with water and drink the water and then take the food remnants of that devotee. Take the dust from the devotee’s feet and smear it all over your body and offer very humble prayers for mercy at the lotus feet of that devotee.
So now the example here given, we have mentioned is Kalidasa, some of you may have heard of Kalidasa. Have you heard…? How many of you have heard of Kalidasa from Caitanya Caritamrta? Oh okay only a couple of you. So Kalidasa, he was an uncle of Ragunathadasa Goswami and he was a great devotee and he, he had taken up as a, like a vow it was his thing, he was just into it, was his…his activity that he would the dust and food remnants and the water which he had just washed the feet of all the devotees in Bengal. Now there were probably millions of devotees in Bengal in those days. So he actually did it. He took the food remnants of all of them. Now of course… and he washed their feet and he took the dust from their feet and like this. So then one… one particular incident is recorded there in Caitanya Caritamrta, He went to one Vaisnava who was from that sort of background, lower class background and he approached him and he said… His name was Jhadhu Thakura. He said, “My dear Jhadhu Thakura, can I please have some dust from your feet?” So what did Jhadhu Thakura say…? (laughter) He said, “No!” (laughter) He said, “Well you know, I don’t have lotus feet actually so the question doesn’t arise.” “Could I have some of your food remnants?” and he said “yes you could but what will be the point.” So in this way as devotees we would expect would do, Jhadhu Thakura refused, but Kalidasa, he was very determined so he brought two mangoes as a gift. He gave them to ah…Jhadhu Thakura and said okay I’ll go now. So Jhadhu Thakura walked him out to the front gate out to the road and said goodbye and Jhaòu Thakura went back inside to eat the mangoes and Kalidasa… as soon as Jhaòu Thakura got inside he came running back, found the foot prints of Jhadhu Thakura in the path and just took the dust and just smeared it all over, completely and just bathed in ecstasy in the dust of Jhadhu Thakura. Then Jhadhu Thakura was sitting there eating the mangoes and he ate the mangoes, and then threw the stones away and the skin into the rubbish heap at the back, so Kalidasa he went and he dug in and he got the mangoes out and the skins and he sucked on them and just got all the mercy and as a result Kalidasa, this was his practice. He wouldn’t take no for an answer (laughter) and you know if “no” really was the answer he had his ways (laughter) of getting around it (laughter).
Yes, so anyway if you happen to get a little bit on the material platform, you are thinking, when you chant Hare Krishna you are thinking about you know the new… whatever you like, you know the new thing that you would like for Krsna or whatever. (laughter) Ya, you got to be merciful to the BMW company by engaging their cars in Krishna’s service (laughter) otherwise how will they advance. Anyway you should do that, find the lowest, I mean the Vaisnava who previously was from the lowest background and just do like that… and stop at nothing… Stop at nothing! So this is what the example of Kalidasa means.
Then let’s go on to the 9th offence, “to instruct a faithless a person about the glories of the holy name” ah… anyway… I think what I will say here, we made a couple of notes as you can see, but due to lack of time I think what I will say here is that you may try to tell someone ah… you may try and tell anyone too much. You know if you go to even one of the devotees and start talking about the intimate pastimes of Radha and Krishna and if you really get into that then…then you’d be committing this offence.
If you go to a Christian and get into a debate with you know one of these born again Christians and it turns into the usual heated discussion, then you would be committing this offence. Ya, so in different ways you can commit this offence just by instructing people beyond their capacity to absorb. Ya, essentially means you are committing this offence, ya So we have to be very mindful about audience and not take the audience beyond their capacity and what to speak of you know not get into some sort of verbal battle with a Christian ah… so that really is the essence of the 9th offence and Bhaktivinoda Thakura gives a recommendation that if you happen to commit this offence, there you are going door to door in Phoenix and you meet some Christian enthusiast and you get into a real “hum dinger” (laughter) and you know you tell him off and he tries to tell you off. Then what you should do is to go into the association of the devotees and in front of them all, you announce that “I did this! I am an offender! Yes, I tried to preach the glories of the holy name to some faithless person so please be merciful, pray to Krsna for me.” You can do like this, and then offer your humble obeisances at the lotus feet of the devotees. Even… it’s interesting Bhaktivinoda Thakura applies this offence in terms of a spiritual master who may accept a disciple, who in the end turns out to be a nonsense. Ya, so Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that if a spiritual master does this, accepts such a disciple and you know then the person later on falls away and becomes a real offender, an aparadhi and you know attacks ISKCON or something like that. Unfortunately these things happen sometimes, ah… so then the spiritual master is meant to come before all the devotees and proclaim that you know “I have done this!” and publicly reject the disciple. Ya, and if he doesn’t do that then according to Bhaktivinoda Thakura he will get a very serious reaction and could possibly fall down. Ya, so this is the recommendation here in regards to the 9th offence.
Now let’s just go on to the 10th offence, “to not have complete faith in the chanting of the holy names and to maintain material attachments even after understanding so many instructions on this matter”. Here is a definition of faith, “by rendering transcendental loving service to Krishna, one automatically performs all subsidiary activities, this confident firm faith favourable to the discharge of devotional service” (CC Madhya 22.62) is called sraddha or faith. Sraddha sabde, what that means is that this word sraddha, Sraddha sabde this word Sraddha, this word faith means and we are going to ask you about this in the test. You must be able to define faith in these terms in the test okay. Did anyone not catch that? We are on your side here. So… hmmm… ya…
Then the next point… oh we also recorded point number 1, well it’s very important that having given up the first 9 nama aparadhas, just one way or another every devotee must surrender completely to the holy name and there are six principles of surrender. We talk a lot about surrendering but what does it mean? What does it mean? You know in the… in the Wild West movies… Did you ever watch any Wild West movies? Buffalo Bill and company… you know they have this this thing when someone has a gun pointing in his face; he puts his hands up like this… (demonstrates) have you seen that. “Hands up!” they say, so actually in the Vedic scriptures this… is a mudra. A mudra means a hand gesture like there is a gesture for knowledge. What is the jnana mudra? Something like this… (demonstrates) ya… something like that… or like that … or that… or something like this… The jnana mudra and in deity worship there’s different mudras performed, hand gestures so this… is the jesture, the mudra for surrender actually in… in according to Vedic scriptures. This is one reason other than feeling very ecstatic, this is one reason why when we chant, we sometimes do like that because it indicates surrender. But what does it really mean to surrender, how do you go about surrendering? You know like if there’s… if there’s war or something and they come at you with guns and you surrender, “okay I surrender” but when does it end just there? No! So when we talk about surrendering to Krsna it doesn’t mean… it doesn’t end with just saying that, “Okay Krsna, here I am. I am all Yours now”. So here, this is coming from Rupa Goswami, there are six principles in surrender, “accepting things favourable for discharging devotional service, rejecting things unfavourable, believing firmly in the Lord’s protection, felling exclusively dependent on the mercy of the Lord, having no interest separate from the interest of the Lord and always feeling oneself meek and humble” (Hari-bhakti-viläsa 11.417) hmmm… so the idea here is that not maintaining material attachments, in other words we are giving ourselves completely to the holy name by accepting things favourable for chanting the holy name, rejecting things unfavourable for chanting the holy name and so on… like this.
Then last, and certainly not least is the danger of inattention which we add on the list of 10 offences. It’s sort of like an 11th offence in a sense, so… ah inattention. Bhaktivinoda Thakura says it can’t be the most dangerous because if you are always inattentive to chanting then… then where… where will the possibility arise of offending or blaspheming the Vaisnavas, or thinking that the name of the Lord is equal to the name of some demigod. If you are really absorbed in chanting very attentively then the possibility of committing any of the 10 offences will hardly arise. So Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that inattention is the root of all 10 offences. Ya, it’s the first root. You know another root could be your own lusty desires due to being a conditioned soul but if you are very attentive to your chanting then even your own lusty desires won’t be able to get in. Ya. So really strictly speaking, if you think about it, inattention is actually the root of all the other offences and if you are always attentive, you won’t commit any of the 10 offences. This is very, very important.
Then Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that there are three types of… ah… inattentive chanting and we are going to ask you this in the test. One is… you don’t need to know the Sanskrit or Bengali, one is called apathy. The other is called laziness and the other is called distraction. So you have to learn those okay? You only got half an hour to learn them plus the definition of faith. So we are going to finish in a minute so you have a chance to swot up. Hmmm, so apathy… laziness… distraction… What they are I think it’s fairly obvious. Ahh… Bhaktivinoda Thakura gives recommendations for each one. To overcome apathy, he says you should chant every day for at least an hour in the company of advanced Vaisnavas. If you are still struggling or maybe if you can’t do that or you know you are in a little isolated place, something of that sort, then he says that you can go and sit alone in a closed room, he says you can even cover your head and face with a cloth so you can’t see anything and just chant. Ya, like this but main thing he says is chant in the association of devotees. Then for laziness, tendency to want to sleep or just can’t be bothered, actually he says that if you are prone to chant slowly, very slowly, this maybe a sign of laziness. Yes. Ya. Of course if you chant too quickly, not that its laziness, but it’s also ahh… a type of inattention if you’re chanting too quickly. Anyway he recommends for laziness… ahh let’s see what he recommends. Again he recommends chanting in the association of devotees. Then overcoming distraction ahh… he says in order to overcome distraction the devotees should observe Ekadasi very carefully and observe the festival days very carefully. The appearance days of the Lord, different forms of the Lord and the great devotees, try to observe those appearance days and the Ekadasis very meticulously and this will help cure you of the tendency to become distracted. So these are some suggestions by from Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Hmmm and you got to be enthusiastic and humble that’s there.
Let’s see. Okay I think that will do for the time being. Of course there is so much we can say but let us say that that will do for the time being. Ahh, now just get your pens ready okay students? Are you ready? I won’t tell you the questions from the other teachers unless you really want me too. “Yes, yes!” (laughter) is there anyone who objects? Oh… someone objects! (laughter)
Yes so anyway for the 10 offences, the questions are:
What are the 10 offences plus the 11th offence? You get 11 marks for that.
What are the 4 types of blasphemy? You remember that? Yes. We told you to write that down.
We told you that you must know two examples of big offenders and we gave… and that means two of the ones we referred to. We referred I think to three or something like that, four even, so you must know two. You don’t really need to explain about them, you just need to know who they were.
What are the 3 stages in chanting? We talked about that yesterday. Got me? Okay. Anyone not got me? What are the 3 stages and that let’s see … ah… you got to know in Sanskrit and English. (laughter) You got that?
Anyone not got that? Hmm… nama-aparadha, the offensive stage, namabhasa, the clearing stage and suddha-nama, pure stage. You got that? Okay.
And then the definition of faith, we just read it’s a few… it’s there in the book, under the 10th offence and 3 types of inattention and there… ohh I was thinking you would only have to know the English but according to this you need to know the Sanskrit also. Hare Krishna! (laughter)
Well it’s a test, it’s meant to be a test.
Now shall I tell them the other questions Radha Damodara? Well, what to say? (laughter)
Well you are meant to know the 7 purposes of ISKCON. You are meant to know… ah… that verse from Srimad Bhagavatam, the translation… so just the translation. 10.14.8. You are meant to give a quote from Srimad Bhagavatam which is in your notes, oh apparently there is a number of them, showing how a devotee should regard reversals or tribulations? You got that? Says one. You are meant to give an astounding I mean outstanding… and astounding example of a great personality who accepted tribulation as a benediction and you are meant to know what tribulation that devotee had to deal with. Got it? Got it? Yes. Sure. Yes. It that okay? Yes.
So let’s hope you all do well. So for my part, does anyone have any comments or questions now?
Yes, Radha Damodara?
(Cannot hear the question clearly)
Yes, yes that is recommended, right. Ahh haaa… ahhh haaa… a tricky solution here. Instead of getting together with the devotees and just chant with them, can we just play a tape of Srila Prabhupada chanting and then be chanting in the association of a pure devotee? Well I’d recommend, I think it more on the spirit of what Bhaktivinoda Thakura is getting at that we chant in the company of advanced devotees and play a tape of Srila Prabhupada chanting. You know I think that would really be appropriate. You know this is very important to chant in the association of advanced devotees. This is very, very important and extremely valuable. Don’t underestimate that. That makes a very, very big difference, really makes a big difference.
Someone else had a question. I saw a hand up somewhere.
(Question cannot be heard)
Yes… under… in the danger of inattention, distraction, viksepa, it’s actually viksepa , anyway we won’t be too touchy about the spelling. “Distraction or misplacing one’s attention in engagements other than sadhanabhakti,” (Sri Harinama Cintamani, 12, chanting inattentively is offensive, inattentiveness in negligence) this includes illusion, attraction to “wealth, women, position, success, material success, cheating” (Sri Harinama Cintamani, 12, chanting inattentively is offensive, distraction (viskepa) and the antidote) propensity. Does that answer the question? Ya, these things are included under this heading of “misplacing one’s attention in engagements other than sadhanabhakti” (Sri Harinama Cintamani, 12, Chanting inattentively is offensive, inattentiveness in negligence) distraction.
(cannot hear devotee’s question)
For the 10th offence, that we surrender, the recommendation for the 10th offence is to surrender to cultivate the 6 principles of surrender. Bhaktivinoda Thakura makes a very interesting recommendation as a remedy for all the offences. You know what it is, it’s a blanket recommendation. It applies across the board to all the offences. He says that in order to avoid the offences, you should do the opposite, means you don’t want to blaspheme the devotees so how do you do avoid it, you do the opposite, you glorify the devotees. You don’t want to get Lord Krishna mixed up with Lord Shiva, Lord Brahma so what do you do, you glorify Krishna and His supreme position. You don’t want to disobey the orders of the spiritual master so you glorify the spiritual master and his instructions and you follow them and promote them like this, not canvassing. (laughter) Watch out! (laughter) Just watch out for that one! My God! (laughter) but anyway we have to find a nice way of doing that and so on and we have another thing here.
Ohh, someone’s cars’ in the way, oh the alarm is on. What sort of car is it? White Conquest ND 154 248, a White Conquest, oops there we go, the alarm is on. Yes. Hmm, ya.
Nrshimananda Prabhu: If one has… ahh… knowledge of the 7 aparadha and one doesn’t perform that activity then… ah… but obviously it goes into nama aparadha but then due to some habit one might be prone you know to doing something even though he is aware. After some time it starts clicking after he performs the activity. Ohh I shouldn’t have done that. So when does… when does it actually turn into an offence?
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: ya, seva aparadha under the 7th offence, from seva aparadha to nama aparadha . Question is when does it become an offence? It becomes offence… it becomes an offence when you know, means you may forget, but you know actually but you forget. Ya, and then you realise, oh wait a minute I shouldn’t have done that should I. Ya, but the thing is, then it’s an offence, because you should know, you do know it, ja, but just because you know of some mode of passion or something, you know rushing around or whatever and you don’t think about it. Ya. Yes it’s like that. It’s not a matter that you are about to enter the temple but then you think, well, let me just wear my shoes in anyway (laughter). It doesn’t have to be that gross, ya or you know I just can’t be bothered offering the pranama, saying the pranama mantras out loud, I will just bow down, touch my head to the ground and jump straight up which is you know not so uncommon these days. Ya.
Yes Charles? (end of recording)
Posted under Transcribed Lectures
The Ten Offences, Day 3, Durban, South Africa
Moving on with our course on the ten offences and we only have another two days left and we have only, and we have 8 more to do and actually there’s an 11th offence of course in a sense. So we have 9 to do so it looks like we are going to have to move on a little bit, speed up a little bit.
So, we are starting today with the 3rd offence, “to disobey the orders of the spiritual master” and of course I haven’t been following this course which Brhat Mrdanga Prabhu is teaching but I think it may be connected, is it? Anyway there is some things to do there with the spiritual master and here you will see, Ahh…we have given 3 headings here, 3 aspects to this subject of disobeying the orders of the spiritual master.
First is just in regard, to the importance of the spiritual master generally, so that’s a very important principle. The principle of guru. The principle of spiritual master is very, very vital in Krsna Consciousness. Then secondly, the importance of founder äcärya, in other words the importance of Srila Prabhupada. That is another very, very important element actually, in our lives in our Krsna Consciousness and thirdly Srila Prabhupada’s explanation on the fall of the Gaudiya Matha, so in other words, and example of what can happen if devotees, if the devotes, if they commit this offence basically. What can happen if one commits this offence, “disobeying the orders of the spiritual master” and everything can fall to pieces and basically the Gaudiya Matha has fallen into pieces and the only ones who are successful at all are those who hang around the periphery of ISKCON, trying to somehow or other get some disgruntled devotees or you know somehow or other, someone who, someone who is so keen on getting initiation but they don’t really care about the standards so when they hear that “we only require 4 rounds!” and they think, “gosh that’s better than ISKCON”. (laughter) “What a good deal!” That is not really, that is a bad deal.
Okay, so this is the 3rd offence then and it’s important, of course it’s an offence which I think you are all well, quite well aware of. The importance of the spiritual master, I think you are aware of that basically. We have quoted Lord Caitanya from Caitanya Caritamrta.
brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jeva
guru-krsna-prasade paya bhakti-lat-beja
“According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Krsna. By the mercy of both Krsna and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.” (CC Madhya 151)
So, the importance of the spiritual master as I say, I think you are all, you at least have a basic understanding of…of the idea, that we are wondering here in the material world, we are lost, lost in the material world, lost completely, we really don’t know where we are going but Krsna, the devotees are there and the devotees they are carrying Krsna’s mercy and the devotees are trying to help the fallen conditioned souls so if we are fortunate, or if the devotees are merciful and they extend themselves going here and there trying to find people, trying to give people the opportunity for Krsna Consciousness. Prabhupada said that about Himself, He said, “I did not wait to become invited to America, I just came”, so this is the mood, this is Srila Prabhupada’s mood. This is the mood that the preachers should have, trying to find opportunities, not sitting there in the temple waiting for the people to come, then we will preach to them. Of course when people come, obviously we will preach to them and the temples are there for that, so people can come. But the devotees are ready to go out and extend themselves and this is their mercy so by such mercy the devotees extending themselves, one meets the devotees, one can meet a bonafide spiritual master, ahh… who is able to actually awaken your Krsna Consciousness and give you guidance so you can then you can start making your way down the path back home, back to Godhead, that is very important. Ya very, very important principle and it’s a principle I am sure you are all aware of and you know the importance, the… the… ahh… the good fortune of meeting bonafide spiritual master.
Srila Prabhupada gave an example, He said, it’s something like the chances, the likelihood of meeting a bonafide spiritual master in the material world is something like, if you have in the Pacific ocean, big ocean, you have one turtle swimming and also in the Pacific ocean somewhere just anywhere, could be anywhere at all, somewhere in the Pacific ocean, you have one piece of wood, with a hole in it, floating there and that hole is just big enough so that the turtles head could fit up through it without touching the sides, when the turtle occasionally comes up to take a breath of air. So the likelihood in general the likelihood is something like that but the turtle just swimming around could be anywhere and that piece of wood floating around could be anywhere, from Los Angeles to Tokyo or Alaska to the Antarctica or whatever, you know in the Pacific ocean. But somehow it just happens that the turtle comes to the surface to take a breath of air and his head goes through the hole without touching the sides, not that it was his good fortunate actually so it’s very important.
Then there is the point, additional point for us that is the importance of the founder-acarya and we have quoted Bhaktivinoda Thakura here. This is a very nice quote. “The founder äcärya is the principle shiksha-guru. The founder-acarya of the sampradaya is the principle shiksha-guru for the entire disciplic succession; speculations that contradict his teachings are to be immediately rejected; only a saintly devotee who has understood the teachings of the principle shiksha-guru is eligible to be a diksha-guru for others. If one thinks that he can be initiated by unauthorised guru or a Mayavadi into these teachings, he is severely punished; he’ll never attain Krsna Consciousness.” (Sri Harinama Cintamani 6, Disobeying or Disrespecting the spiritual master, The teaching of the adi-guru must be followed)
I am sure, I imagine all of you were there, that one Sunday program in which we read the letter from the GBC body and we made mention… we made mention of the fact that…“Take it outside”. We made mention of the fact that there was a… what do you call it, a proposal, there was proposal put to GBC body that Srila Prabhupada, that ISKCON be declared a sampradaya as distinct from you know, it’s already happened, it’s a Brahma sampradaya and then Madhavacharya came and then it became, Brahma-Madhava, and Brahma-Madhava sampradaya is a little different from the Brahma sampradaya and actually the Brahma sampradaya are still existing in India. There are still the Brahma sampradaya without Madhava. The same ideas coming from Brahma but before Madhava came and made his contribution, so there are still some sort of remnants of the Brahma sampradaya but unfortunately it’s lacking that contribution of Madhava made. That’s very important contribution and then Lord Caitanya came along and then the followers of Madhavacharya, everything got updated by Lord Caitanya so even now the Brahma-Madhava people, actually they are a little bit out of touch. They are a little bit out of touch, they missed out on the mercy of Lord Caitanya, Ya and they are a little mixed up.
One of our devotees, Bhakti Vikas Swami, you may have heard of him, he writes for BTG sometimes. He went to Uddupi which is the headquarters of the Brahma-Madhava, Madhava sampradaya and at that time, a few, some or several years ago or so many years ago there had been some gurus who had fallen down in ISKCON. Maybe 10 or 12 years ago actually, so he went and asked the people, the äcärya, the main head at the Uddupi headquarters of Madhavacharya. “Have you ever had people, have you ever had this happen? Did you ever have this happen?” and he said “yes yes. We have had people deviate, we have had people deviate like Caitanya Mahaprabhu.”(laughter) Yes, he saw it like that, (laughter) but of course the fact is and they know we are in this line from Lord Caitanya and we’re kind of connected to them, but we make a distinction and we consider it very important that distinction, the contribution of Lord Caitanya. But they got a little left behind and they think it’s a deviation, so anyway we had this, this idea came up in the GBC meetings of declaring the Brahma-Madhava-Gaudiya-Bhaktivedanta sampradaya and everyone thought it was a great idea, everyone. It is a great idea but anyway they thought they should sort of think their presentation out more clearly because they might offend some of Prabhupada’s God-brothers and their followers which undoubtedly would be the case but unfortunately I mean it’s not a matter of not doing it, it’s just a matter of trying to make it as gentle as possible with them because the fact is that those people who are trying to practice Krsna Consciousness now, separate from Srila Prabhupada, you know it’s like the Madhavacharya people, they got sort of, a little left behind. This is a very important thing. So here we have it, the importance of the founder-acarya, particularly in our cases.
Srila Prabhupada Himself says it somewhere in the 4th Canto, that anyone who thinks they can become Krsna Conscious independent of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is living in a great hallucination. “Have you read that? Are you reading Srimad Bhagavatam?” “Ya.” “Did you read that?” Ya, Ya well I am sure you would have noticed it of you’re reading, ya so this is a very important thing and then as far as that goes there is that resolution, you remember about like the 3 in 1 resolution? We also read it out one Sunday program. You know what I am talking about? Ya? Let me just, I’ve got it here. There is a preamble “whereas allegiance in principle should be one and undivided yet devotees in ISKCON sometimes feel their allegiance to their spiritual master and their allegiance to ISKCON that they are not intrinsically related and could become
You know like the spiritual master might decide that he wants to go off and form his own institution actually, it’s specifically what they getting at, “whereas there is sometimes evidence of irresolution among devotees in ISKCON as to the priorities of their allegiance to their spiritual master on one hand and their allegiance to ISKCON on the other, whereas to strengthen the devotees commitment there is a need for a clear and unequivocal understanding of how our allegiance is one and indivisible therefore be it hereby resolved that the GBC hereby issues this statement on allegiance. For all devotees in ISKCON allegiance to the spiritual master and allegiance to ISKCON must be understood as two manifest features of one and the same indivisible allegiance, the reason for this is that all devotees in ISKCON, whether they act as spiritual masters or not are equally bound by the order of the founder-acarya, Srila Prabhupada. And Srila Prabhupada has enjoined us repeatedly to serve Him cooperatively within the framework of ISKCON. ISKCON is the instrument which Srila Prabhupada crafted by His own hands for our service to Him and which in virtue of His position as founder-acarya continues to be His manifest body for receiving personal service from us, consequently for a devotee to serve the spiritual master in the line of Srila Prabhupada and to serve ISKCON are simply two different aspects of a single service to Srila Prabhupada. Consequently devotees in ISKCON have only one allegiance which is manifest in three features, allegiance to the guru, to ISKCON and to Srila Prabhupada.” Ya, so the importance of the founder- acarya, very, very important for us as members of ISKCON as devotees, as devotees because basically anyone independent of Srila Prabhupada nowadays, even though they may be somewhat Krsna Conscious but it’s just like somewhat like the Madhava people, they are just a little out of touch and the difference, the difference that being out of touch makes will become more and more manifest as time goes on.
Then the third point is an example, we give an example of someone, some people who disobey the orders of their spiritual master and it’s the same Gaudiya Matha. Prabhupada, Himself writes… pardon me for reading so much… “the words daivera karana,” (CC, Adi, 12.8, Purport) This is Caitanya Caritamrta, Chapter 12 if you want to read what Srila Prabhupada thinks about the Gaudiya Matha, read Caitanya Caritamrta, Adi lila, Chapter 12 and you will get a clear picture of what Srila Prabhupada thinks of the Gaudiya Matha, so this is the purport to verse 8.
“The words daivera karana indicate that by dint of providence, or by God’s will, the followers of Advaita Äcärya divided into two parties.” (CC, Adi, 12.8, Purport)
Even Advaita Acarya, isn’t that amazing, He is an incarnation of God and His people divided into two in His presence.
“Such disagreement among the disciples of one äcärya is also found among the members of the Gaudiya Matha. In the beginning, during the presence of Om Visnupda Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya Astottara-sata Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada, all the disciples worked in agreement; but just after his disappearance, they disagreed. One party strictly followed the instructions of Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Thakura, but another group created their own concoction about executing his desires. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of his departure, requested all his disciples to form a governing body and conduct missionary activities cooperatively. He did not instruct a particular man to become the next acarya. But just after his passing away, his leading secretaries made plans, without authority, to occupy the post of acarya, and they split into two factions over who the next acarya would be. Consequently, both factions were asura, or useless, because they had no authority, having disobeyed the order of the spiritual master.” (CC, Adi lila, 12.8 purport)
Thing is that it is traditional in India that every spiritual institution has a head who is called the acarya and he is, he is the chief, basically, what he says goes and everyone is under him, but Srila Bhaktisiddhanta didn’t want that. However His disciples were kind of conditioned to that idea just by their upbringing so and, and they found it very difficult to manage things cooperatively because people tend to have their own ideas and they thought it would just be simpler if they could make one person the acarya, he could just say everything and people would just accept him and he wouldn’t have to worry about discussing things and going back and forth. So they elected one fellow, I think his name was Kunja Bihari. Unfortunately he didn’t make it! Unfortunately he ran off with one lady who was some sort of low class lady obviously. He ran off with one lady and became quite degraded. It was a story quite similar to the Ajamila story if you are familiar with that. There were really some pretty clear similarities and in the end she killed him. Sjoe! Yes, she killed him so he was like, being the acarya like the main one who disobeyed the order of the spiritual master in the main way and you know just see and we have even had personal experience, we had as our GBC here going back, ‘82 was the end, so that’s 16 years ago, Jayathirtha and who I knew very well, very well indeed but he also got some ideas in his head and tried to become you know the LSD acarya which also didn’t work. It really didn’t work and in the end, well it’s a little bit of a gory story but in the end, his main follower, his right hand man, well actually what happened was Jayathirtha declared himself to be Krsna, you know which is a step up from being the acarya (laughter). Being acarya is pretty big, but what’s next, what’s higher…well the only thing that is left is to become God so he decided he wasn’t satisfied being the independent LSD acarya so he declared himself Krsna and then he ran off with the girlfriend of his right hand man. These things happen in this world and declared her to be Radha (laughter). Anyway Radha and Krsna didn’t make it (laughter), and Radha left Krsna or maybe… maybe Krsna left Radha and adopted another Radha or Candravali perhaps. (laughter) So Radha ended up fried with Krsna and went back to the right hand man and complained like mad about Krsna, how can Krsna leave Radha and the right hand man who was also like an upcoming LSD acarya. (laughter) He said, “Right! Right! This is unbonafide , Krsna cannot leave Radha so as a reaction for this offence he must die,” so he killed him. Yes and cut his head off actually, placed his body in a lotus position, you know sitting cross legged, put his hands down like this and put his head in his hands and sat there and waited for the police to come. Hare Krsna! (laughter)
So don’t disobey the orders of the spiritual master okay (laughter), please, don’t do that and particularly not in some special way but don’t in any way, don’t in any way because you will find that the…the orders of the spiritual master, they are like a boat, you could say, as long as you stay on the boat, and we are trying, we are floating across this ocean of material existence and its really rough. You know it’s really rough this material ocean, so you got to stay on the boat and even though it may get bumpy sometimes and you may feel a little sea sick sometimes, but don’t think that the answer is to jump out of the boat of the orders of the spiritual master, and that means one’s own spiritual master if you know as in the cases of most or perhaps all of you. Your spiritual master is one of the current spiritual masters so it means stay on the boat of his instructions but it also means to stay on the boat of Srila Prabhupada instructions.
Ya, and when you, you know we have these three standards you could say for knowledge, sadhu, shastra, guru. Out of them the highest standard is shastra, in order for a guru or a sadhu to be accepted as a guru or a sadhu, their teachings have to conform with çästra not that they can innovate and you know, contradict çästra and, and expect to be accepted as bonafide. So, so similarly for… in terms of what we were reading from the GBC resolutions a few minutes ago, in order for a guru to be bonafide in ISKCON, they have to be in conformity with Srila Prabhupada and He has the higher position. They cannot innovate and contradict Srila Prabhupada and say, expect to be taken seriously.
Okay so that is something about the 3rd offence, of course there is so much we can say about that but as I said we are running out of time, so we will move on now to the 4th offence. “To blaspheme the Vedic literature or literature in pursuance of Vedic version” and we give one quotation from Caitanya Caritamrta,
ei kali-kale ara nahi kona dharma
vaisnava, vaisneava-castra, ei kahe marma
“In this Age of Kali there are no genuine religious principles other than those established by Vaisnava devotees and the Vaisnava scriptures. This is the sum and substance of everything.” (CC, Madhya 9.362 translation)
Sometimes it is said that the spiritual master is like the captain of the ship. Have you heard that? Actually it is in the Bhagavatam, in one of the verses I think. Ya. Vyasadeva, I think is glorifying the captain of the ship for those who want to cross the dangerous ocean of Kali so the spiritual master as the representative of Vyasadeva is like that, He is guiding us but the scriptures, they are like the map book, you could say. The spiritual master is giving the personalised direction in terms of you and your own situation like that. But the scriptures are giving the general directions, chant Hare Krsna and in a more general sense.
In Nectar of Devotion if you are familiar with Nectar of Devotion you’ll know that Rupa Goswami at the beginning of Chapter 6, talks about how there are general instructions and detailed instructions. The general instructions are generally found in çästra and the detailed instructions means for more like you as an individual… generally like that. So in this sense the Vedic literatures are giving the general directions how to practice Krsna Consciousness and the spiritual master is helping you personally, it’s more like that. Krsna Consciousness is a personal process.
So, anyway, the Vedic scriptures therefore are definitely essential and we shouldn’t think that we have become more intelligent that Srila Vyasadeva, or Lord Krsna or Lord Caitanya or Krsnadas Kaviraja Goswami.
Ahh…Then there are some forms of this offence, different forms, there a couple of different forms of this offence that I thought we could note.
Is everyone awake? Are any of you asleep? Try and stay awake. Yes. You can fan yourself, see Mataji is demonstrating (laughter), she will sell you a fan or you can make one yourself. Fan yourself if you are feeling hot otherwise you could always stand up.
So some forms of this offence, there are two forms of this offence mentioned in… Nectar of Instruction. Of course there are many forms with any of these offences you could, we could have a whole course on any one of them but here we are talking, we have drawn out two particular forms of this offence. Do you know what I am talking about, Nectar of Instruction? Have you read Nectar of Instruction? Who hasn’t? Put your hand up if you haven’t read Nectar of…, have not read? Okay. So, most of you have. Now can you think, those of you who have read it, can you think? There is a very clear instruction in Nectar of Instruction about following instructions. Hare Krsna! It’s all to do with instructions. Are you familiar with the term, niyamägraha. Are you familiar with that term, those of you who have read Nectar of Instruction? Niyamägraha, it’s a compound word which can be interpreted in two ways, niyama-ägraha or niyama-agraha… Ya, so niyama-ägraha… niyama-ägraha means that ahh…that you follow…. Where are we? Okay. Srila Prabhupada says, “Accepting some of the scriptural rules and regulations for immediate benefit, as utilitarians advocate, is called niyama-ägraha, and neglecting the rules and regulations of the çästras, which are meant for spiritual development, is called niyama-agraha.” (Nectar of Instruction, Verse 2, Purport)
The word ägraha, perhaps I should write it on the board, the word ägraha means being like overly eager to accept. You become a rules and regulations fanatic. I remember I had one really good experience of that. There was this one devotee who had heard that ahh… Srila Prabhupada had said, I do not know whether it was really true or not, but he heard that Prabhupada had said that if you eat more than nine chickpeas. You know what a chickpea is? Chana. Basically, a form of chana. If you eat more than nine in a day, this is maya. This is bad for you. It’s very passionate food that’s true. So we were on travelling sankirtan and we would have chickpeas sometimes and he would count the number. (laughter) Yes, and if we had more than nine, he would get on our cases (laughter) in all seriousness he would be very, very upset.
So here we have niyama ägraha and that long a, which has the line over it, that indicates, I assume you are familiar with these symbols in our transliterated sanskrit. Long a, but it can be either a combination of niyama ägraha or niyama agraha, so the fact that Rupa Goswami doesn’t go to great length to make the point that its one or the other means that it can be applied, Ahh… either understanding can be applied.
So niyama ägraha means you become a rules and regulations fanatic, a very touchy sort of person who is always checking people out and finding fault like that but niyama agraha means you don’t take the rules and regulations seriously enough, just like one, you know we have the four regulative principles, so sometimes you get the people who are struggling with them and they try to umm… they can’t follow them all so they try to justify it. You know there is one fellow; he made a slogan, “three for me”. How’s that? “Three for me.” I don’t know which three and which one is the odd one out (laughter) but he made a little slogan like that. Ya, and you get this type of person and they’ll come you or you may hear them preaching to some, one of these borderline types of people, types of devotees that you know, “why, why do you put yourself into anxiety by, by artificially repressing yourself, you know you should just, you know if you feel like doing something, just do it. It’s alright. Krsna is merciful. He’ll forgive you.” So ya, you get people like that.
In Nectar of Devotion you will see that in the earlier parts where Srila Prabhupada is discussing association and the dangers of association with non-devotees. He talks about two types of non-devotees, he talks about those, he talks about two types of dangerous association; association with those who are not devotees and association with those who are too materialistic but they are devotees. Ya, so that association with people, with devotees who are too materialistic, this is very dangerous, particularly if you are a neophyte like the kanistha adhikari. The kanistha adikari’s consciousness, mind can be changed easily by some opposing argument. So, if someone comes along advocating that smoking dagga every now and then is okay, as long as you don’t do it too often, then some people or something like that you know. Watching T.V. is now the fifth regulative principle. (laughter) It’s there somewhere but actually it comes under the fourth, it comes under gambling actually. Ya, useless activity. So, Ya, you may get some people, they tell you, “ look you know, it’s okay, there a good program, on educational program like the Bold and the Beautiful (laughter), you can watch it a little bit, I mean, what the hec. Don’t repress yourself, repression. Krsna says in the Bhagavad gita, what will repression accomplish? He says that. He says it. It’s there in black and white. What will repression accomplish? So you see, it’s okay. (laughter)Ya, it’s alright. Don’t repress yourself.” Repression is dangerous. Did you know that! Repression is dangerous.
You know, down in Cape Town, a while ago, few years ago, a few years ago, we were very active there on the campus, we still are, and a few Jewish youngsters were joining our society on campus and the Jewish society reacted very strongly and they had a whole campaign against the Hare Krsna’s and one of their main parts was about being vegetarian. So they got one of their big Rabbis to write a big article in their campus newsletter magazine and he wrote an article that this vegetarianism is very dangerous. It’s extremely dangerous because eating meat is natural and if you repress some natural urge, It will build up in you, just like if you compress a spring, its builds up and then finally you let it go and then BANG! You know really, so if you repress your natural urges after a while it will just build up and then explode. Ahh, explode and you will just go, it will be a mess. He loses his serious argument against vegetarianism. Anyway perhaps we are getting a little side tracked here but the thing is that both being overly fanatical about following the rules and regulations of scripture, plus being too loose and not following them properly, they are both dangerous and you can end up disobeying the orders of the…I mean blaspheming Vedic literature and literature in pursuance of Vedic version. So of course in order to figure out how to do it, then we need the guidance of the spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada obviously, particularly by far His books are explaining everything very nicely.
Okay we’ll take a break and would you mind if we… if coming back in 10 minutes.
Could you please explain whether it is proper to chant on your beads before taking bath in the morning taking into consideration that the nine holes of the body becomes contaminated when one takes rest. What is the strict or correct approach in this regard according to shastric injunctions?
So, the correct thing is, well the best thing is just to take bath, but if…you know it’s too cold for example, like in India where often times they don’t have hot water in so many places Ahh, wow, the air is really coming in (laughter). So in India, you know when its winter in some parts like Vrndavana particularly and Mayapur for that matter but particularly Vrndavana in winter it’s really cold sometimes. It’s literally freezing, it gets down to zero. Its gets really cold and so therefore many…many of the people they don’t take bath until the sun has risen in fact that is sort of like you could say a, it’s not like a really important standard but it’s a type of Vedic standard not taking bath before the sun rises, I mean it’s like a very minor standard. So Srila Prabhupada, He sometimes would…would apply that… and only take bath a little later having got up some time before you know he would get up sometimes at midnight or 2 in the morning that was quite normal. So then what one does in that case if for some reason you may not be able to, perhaps you’re travelling. If you’re in India, you may be travelling in a train and you can’t really take a proper bath when you get up in some cases, so then the idea is that wash your hands, wash your feet, wash your face and chant! So that…that is what Srila Prabhupada did so that we would accept as being an acceptable standard as far as that goes.
Is that okay? I don’t know who asked the question, but is that okay, whoever asked?
So now we will carry on, we will go on now to the 5th offence, “Considering the glories of chanting Hare Krishna to be imagination”. So we have given, how many, we have given four headings here Ahh… and when I was making up my notes this morning I added a fifth.
First thing, I thought we should mention is about the potency of the holy name. I am sure you’ve heard that there is a shastric statement: anghah sanghavad….
anghah sanghavad akhilam sakrd udayad
“With one utterance of the holy name all sins are destroyed.” (CC Anthya 3.181 Translation)
I am sure you have heard this, you chant Hare Krsna without offences once, once, purely, actually the pure holy name, suddha nama and that will extinguish the results of more sinful activities than you could perform in an indefinite period of time in the material world. Just chanting Hare Krsna once, so that is really quite something.
And then there is another quotation and this is given by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura
yan nama sakrc chravanat pukaso’pi vimucyate samsarat
Oh the air is coming right. Are you getting some air? Oh wow! I am… (laughter) It’s coming out this side also, oh good. (laughter)
“If one hears the Holy Name even one time, a candala can obtain liberation from the material world.” (SB 6.16.44)
So the holy name has such tremendous potency and ahh… anyway the various, these various little sub sections that we have included here, they are examples of that, they are giving different examples.
First of all, chanting of the holy names, well first of all, let us just acknowledge the fact that even though it says “with one utterance of the holy name all sins are destroyed” (CC Anthya 3.181 Translation) and ya, you know that is really quite something fantastic, we may still be experiencing, ahh… some material contamination. Do any of you ever experience any material contamination? Couple of people. Okay (laughter). Gee wizz… where as you others, you are doing very well; tell me your secret (laughter)!
So we may notice that, that despite the fact that we have been chanting for years and years every day, but still you know sometimes the mind gets a little affected by something. Isn’t it? These things are going on unfortunately so then we may doubt this is the nature of this offence. We may doubt, I have been chanting Hare Krsna for such a long time and it says, if you chant it just once, then you are completely liberated, no more problems and practically you’ve gone back to Godhead on the spot but not me. So we may think, and then we may look around us and see well what about the other devotees. Maybe I am just the odd one out and then we may see that actually they are also having the odd problem every now and then. So, then we might think that actually you know this statement, these glories of the holy name is just imagination but actually it’s not true. It’s not true! Srila Prabhupada asked, we did mention here. The evidence of Nectar of Devotion if you look down there at point number 3, we are quoting one verse from the CC which is referred to in Nectar of
Devotion. How does that verse go?
sadhu-sanga, nama-kirtana, bhagavata-sravana
mathura-vasa, sri-murtira sraddhaya sevana
“One should associate with devotees, chant the holy name of the Lord, hear Srimad-Bhagavatam, reside at Mathura and worship the Deity with faith and veneration.” (CC Madhya 22.128 translation)
“These five limbs of devotional service are the best of all. Even a slight performance of these five awakens love for Krsna.” (CC Madhya 22.129 translation)
So we might say that it taking, it’s taking an awfully long time to awaken within me. Ya, so Srila Prabhupada gives an explanation in Nectar of Devotion having acknowledged this verse from Caitanya Caritamrta.
Srila Prabhupada says, “In these statements about devotional service, sometimes it may appear that the results have been overestimated, but actually there is no overestimation. Some devotees, as revealed scriptures give evidence, have had immediate results by such association, although this is not possible for all. For example, the Kumaras immediately became devotees simply by smelling the incense in the temple. Bilvamangala Thakura simply heard about Krsna and then immediately gave up his beautiful girl friend and started out for Mathura and Vrndavana, where he became a perfect Vaisnava.” (NOD 13, 5 Potent forms of devotional service purport) Immediately! Immediately! Practically! Almost! “So these statements are not overestimations, nor are they stories. They are actual facts, but are true for certain devotees and do not necessarily apply to all.”(NOD 13, 5 Potent forms of devotional service purport) These statements…. Oh okay that will do there.
Ahh… the thing is that chanting of the holy names is on three levels. That is the first point that appears there ahh… in your over view book and it depends on what level you are chanting. If you are chanting on the level of nama- aparadha then not only will you not come to the level of love of God instantly, not only will all your sinful reactions not go away instantly but you will probably fall down and stop chanting Hare Krsna at least for some time. Ya, so it depends on what level you are chanting. The second level, namabhasa, Prabhupada called this the clearing stage. This is a very amazing stage in which you are not committing any offences. You are not committing any offences but still there is a residue you could say within you of various things from the past so therefore your chanting isn’t totally pure in the sense of being on the level of love of God but because there are no offences, it’s called the clearing stage. Now Srila Prabhupada expected all of us to chant on the clearing stage. This is why at the time of first initiation, I am sure you have all heard it and seen it on numerous occasions, this is why at the time of first initiation there is always a lecture about the ten offences. Right? You’ve all seen, I am sure you must have. It’s always there because Srila Prabhupada intention and desire, what He wanted and expected is at least when the devotees are initiated that they chant on the clearing stage. They avoid the ten offences and they chant seriously and in this way they make progress ahh…towards the level of pure chanting, shuddha nama, or chanting on the level of love of God. So this is something you could just note, this is what is expected of you, this is what is expected of all of us, on a very practical and down to earth and real level on a daily basis.
So that clearing stage is very amazing, here you will see we also talk about Haridasa Thakura isn’t it? Ya, Haridasa Thakura, point number 4. There was one incident it’s described in detail in Caitanya Caritamrta. Haridasa Thakura attended a meeting where different people gathered, devotees, different philosophers and people and they debated about the holy name and or actually no, they didn’t, they were debating about what is the most effective process of religion, that is what they were debating about, and some were saying jnana yoga, some were saying karma yoga, some were saying meditating on this or that or worshipping the demigods or impersonalism or something, different things and that through these processes, you can achieve liberation. So Haridasa Thakura when he heard this, he said, “actually you know the chanting of Hare Krsna is so amazing, so powerful that just a dim reflection of it can give you liberation” and dim reflection, the actual Bengali word which Srila Prabhupada is translating there is namabhasa, Ya chanting on the clearing stage or abasa, abasa literally means reflection, actually, Ya. It’s a reflection of the holy name, it’s not the pure holy name, it’s something else mixed that like residue of your previous activities and consciousness, that’s mixed in with it a bit. So therefore it is namabhasa. There is namabhasa, there is Vaisnava abasa, you know the reflection of a devotee like a pseudo devotee. Anyway, namabhasa, Haridasa Thakura says just a, just a dim reflection of the holy name can give liberation, and this one other philosopher got up and said, “What? You are talking nonsense. How can it be, chanting the holy name just a dim reflection of it you get liberation. Liberation is so hard to get”. So he challenged Haridasa Thakura, he said that, “if it is not true that a dim reflection of the holy name can give liberation then I am going to cut off your nose.” In those days people took these things very seriously (laughter) you know.
Sometimes the Shivites and the Vaisnavas, I mean what to speak of the Muslims when they attacked India but even the Shivites just on, just on the basis of this question, who is superior, Shiva or Vishnu, sometimes they would fight wars. Did you know that? Well just not the Muslims, oh ya in the time of Ramanujacharya, one Shivite king tried to assassinate Ramanujacharya, simply because he was preaching Vaisnavism and showing that Lord Shiva is not the supreme amongst other things, and he took it very seriously and Ramanujacharya he had a debate with some Jains, who are kind of like certain type of impersonalists really and the.. they made a wager that whoever was defeated would have to become the disciple of the person who won or commit suicide. They took it really seriously. So there were 1200 of these Jains, they all ganged up on Ramanujacharya with this wager and they lost. Ramanujacharya won so he told them, “right now you must be my disciples or commit suicide”. You know what they did? They all committed suicide! All, 1200 of them. Isn’t that taking it, you know your religion very seriously, would you do that for Krsna? Anyway we won’t ask you actually but ya.
So ya, so anyway this man said you know so ya I’ll cut your nose off if it’s not correct and Haridasa Thakura said “look, if it’s not correct I’ll cut my own nose off”, and three days later that other philosopher got leprosy and his nose fell off. Ya, so he committed this offence actually, considered the glories of chanting Hare Krsna to be imagination.
Now we have also mentioned here, the evidence of Ajamila and other evidences from Srimad Bhagavatam but think we don’t have a lot of time. Let us just consider the evidence of Ajamila. I think you are all… is anyone here not familiar with the story of Ajamila? Okay, so Ajamila when he died or he was, he didn’t actually die at that time, it appeared like he was going to so as he was practically dying, the Yamadutas… he called out the name Narayana. He was so horrified; he called out for his son, who he happened to have named Narayana. The reason he named him Narayana was basically because a social custom, even in India to this day children are very, very commonly called you know Krsna, Narayana, this that, Vishnu and you know it’s just a social custom. Just like in South Africa, the Indian people have adopted this, at least some of them or even many of using English names. Ya when I met… when I first came I didn’t know about it and it was rather shocking. I met this one man, and he said, my name Gopala Govender, Gopala Govender, but everyone calls me Fred (laughter). So you know such is life, well Fred is not such a special name but the very popular names like John, of all the English names, John is the most popular. Ya, John is the most popular and it is the name of a saint but you know no one thinks that we will name our child after Saint John. Yes, it’s just a popular name. So in the case of Ajamila, Narayan was just a popular and he just decided to call that particular child Narayana because that was just the social custom. So then everyday he was calling Narayana, Narayana come here, go there, come with me as a doting parent basically. Then the time of death came and he was very attached to Narayana so in that mood of bewilderment he called out “Narayana!” and then the Yamadutas came and then the Vishnudutas came and he was saved and actually he didn’t even die and eventually went back to Godhead a few years later.
So now ahh… here is an example we know, it’s a very important example from Srimad Bhagavatam but many devotees do not understand the real significance of it or like what is really like the critical, the critical aspect of the whole thing. Many devotees that that he called the name, “Narayana” and at the time of death and that was the critical thing. Isn’t it? At least I think so in my experience. He somehow called the name Narayana at the time of death and that was the thing which saved him but if you read the 2nd Chapter of the 6th Canto at the end, right at the very end, the very last purport, Srila Prabhupada, citing Viçvanätha Cakravarthi Thakura explains that that was not actually the thing and I will now read, just… it’s a fairly lengthy explanation but I will read just one paragraph which explains what was really the thing, the critical thing which actually saved Ajamila. It wasn’t that he called out the name Narayana at the time of death. There was something else which was more important.
So Prabhupada writes, “Since he was constantly chanting the name of Narayana,” (SB. 6.2.49 Purport) oh no, “one may argue…”, Prabhupada says “One may argue, “Since he was constantly chanting the name of Narayana, how was it possible for him to be associating with a prostitute and thinking of wine?” By his sinful actions he was bringing suffering upon himself again and again, and therefore one may say that his ultimate chanting of Narayana was the cause of his being freed.” (SB. 6.2.49 Purport)
So like this, one may think that his chanting of Narayana, his ultimate chanting of Narayana when he died was his cause of being freed but no.
“However, his chanting would then have been a nama-aparadha. One who continues to act sinfully and tries to neutralize his sins by chanting the holy name of the Lord is a nama-aparadhi. In response it may be said that Ajamila’s chanting was inoffensive because he did not chant the name of Narayana with the purpose of counteracting his sins. He did not know that he was addicted to sinful actions,” (SB. 6.2.49 Purport) he just thought it was normal to do all these things, “nor did he know that his chanting of the name of Näräyaëa was neutralizing them. Thus he did not commit a nama-aparadha, and his repeated chanting of the holy name of Narayana while calling his son may be called pure chanting.” (SB. 6.2.49 Purport) Not shuddha-nama but namabhasa in the sense that namabhasa is free from offence. “Because of this pure chanting, Ajamila unconsciously accumulated the results of bhakti.” (SB. 6.2.49 Purport) And this is now the crucial thing. “Indeed, even his first utterance of the holy name was sufficient to nullify all the sinful reactions of his life. To cite a logical example, a fig tree does not immediately yield fruits, but in time the fruits are available. Similarly, Ajamila’s devotional service grew little by little, and therefore although he committed very sinful acts, the reactions did not affect him.” (SB. 6.2.49 Purport) Hare Krsna! That is amazing. “In the shastras it is said that if one chants the holy name of the Lord even once, the reactions of past, present or future sinful life do not affect him. To give another example, if one extracts the poison fangs of a serpent, this saves the serpent’s future victims from poisonous effects, even if the serpent bites repeatedly. Similarly, if a devotee chants the holy name even once inoffensively, this protects him eternally. He need only wait for the results of the chanting to mature in due course of time. “(SB. 6.2.49 Purport)
So the point is that when he named the child, Narayana, inoffensively speaking the name Narayana at that time that sowed a seed which grew irrevocably and produced fruits in due course of time. Of course the ultimate fruit was when he went back to Godhead which was later but this was one fruit like the beginning of the fruit, he got liberated, he got delivered from this horrible situation with the Yamadutas. So had you thought about it like that? I don’t know if you had thought about it like that. The crucial thing was that he chanting the holy name of Narayana when he named his child and that was the beginning. From that point on it wasn’t a matter of if he would become successful in Krsna Consciousness, it was just a matter of when, just a matter of when and then it gradually started coming. First of all, he was delivered from the Yamdutas and then he went back to Godhead eventually. So like this we shouldn’t…don’t underestimate the holy name, don’t underestimate it at all!
Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakura in Madhurya Kadambini, he raises the point, we can just mention finally that ah… Sometimes you may look at a devotee and see, or you may look at yourself or you may look at another devotee and see that traces of sinful life, some bad habits or something, some short comings and you may think that this person is not making any advancement in Krsna Consciousness and like this you may think because apparently there is some bad habits but Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakura says that… what does he say… “just as a fruit bearing tree bears fruit the holy name pleased with an offenceless person will reveal its mercy, since the heaps of sinful reactions which are being experienced due to previous bad practices are factually reduced to insignificance by the process of bhakti like the bite of a serpent without his poison fangs the sickness lamentation and other sufferings that are undergone by devotees are not due to sins in the previous life. The Lord thinking of the welfare of his devotees in order to increase his humility and longing for the Lord bestows on him all sorts of suffering as his mercy. This suffering is not the effect of sinful actions in previous life.” (Madhurya- Kadambini 3, Third Shower of Nectar, Surrendered devotees are under the Lord’s protection)
I think we are very fortunate because we have all received that seed as Ajamila did when he chanted the name, “Narayana”. We have all received that seed so it is just a matter of when you, in a sense when you want to back to Godhead. Of course if you decide that you just must stay in the material world and you know, you will just hear nothing else I mean you will hear nothing about going back to Godhead. If you decide like that then you can stay if you really insist but otherwise from what Prabhupada explains there and Visvanatha Charavarthi Thakura explains that if you carry on in the clearing stage, chanting without offences you are on your way back to Godhead.
Is that.. Is that okay? Is that good? Yes. That’s nice. We are on our way back to Godhead. Ya. This is why Srila Prabhupada He would speak very optimistically about it. Ya. He spoke very optimistically about how you can go back to Godhead, even… even in this lifetime.
One devotee, actually Mother Malati you may have heard of her, actually she just became a candidate for GBC. Ahh… She asked Prabhupada once that “You say if we just chant 16 rounds a day, follow the regulative principles we can go back to Godhead end of this life”. Prabhupada said “yes”. But she says, “it sounds too easy, how can it be so easy… sounds too easy.” Srila Prabhupada looked at her and said, “Do you think I would cheat you? So, yes. This is very merciful process, thing is we have to avoid offences and chant in the clearing stage. It’s very, very important. I think now we will do one more, just very briefly.
The 6th offence, “to give some interpretation on the holy name of the Lord” and we have referred you to an experience that Lord Caitanya had… Ah… One time
(beginning of recording)
…one hundred ashvameda sacrifices. If you perform one hundred ashvameda sacrifices you can become Lord Indra. Ya, you can become Lord Indra. The Ashvameda sacrifice is the biggest material sacrifice, the biggest karma khanda activity in existence, ashvameda, ya, horse sacrifice. So hundred you know, it’s practically unheard of. Our, the current Indra has performed a hundred, not all Indra’s can do it but our current Indra has performed a hundred ashvameda sacrifices, very difficult, it’s a big thing. So this student was thinking that this is such a nice glorification. Chanting Hare Krsna is as good as one hundred ashvameda sacrifices, oh very thing, it’s a nice thing, and he thought Lord Caitanya would appreciate so much. But Lord Caitanya got very angry and chased him out physically; He was going to beat him up. Yes! Lord Caitanya was running after him, the poor fellow had to run for his life and he went and he gathered together with some of his friends and then they complained. So when Lord Caitanya, when he saw them complain, he decided, I have to take sannayas, these people can’t take me seriously so that was like the final straw which lead to Lord Caitanya taking sannayas.
So anyway the thing is that we can’t compare, we shouldn’t interpret, give some mundane interpretation on the holy names of the Lord. Understand it as being something completely purely spiritual totally spiritual. You cannot really draw any parallels between the chanting of the holy names and even the best, even the best so called material activity or thing.
Okay, I think I may have to finish here.
Does anyone have any comments or questions?
You are all looking a little sleepy today? (laughter) I hope it wasn’t too much my fault. Anyway I feel quite good down here (laughter) getting the breeze. (laughter)
Srila Prabhupada Ki… oh sorry… yes?
(devotee asks a question that cannot be heard on audio)
…because we have impure senses and impure facilities how can we chant the holy name purely?
Well the thing is, if we follow the process of Krsna Consciousness as it’s given, the authorised process, the process is pure, so if we follow the pure process we become purified. Ya, this is… this is the basic idea. If you follow the pure process, just like if you stand in front of fire, you become hot. We are not by nature hot, you know we are a certain temperature but not really hot but if you stand in front of fire, whether you want to get hot or not, you will get hot. So the process is pure. goloker premadhana, harinama-sankirtana. (Hari Hari Bifale, From Prarthana, Prayer to One’s Beloved Lord, By Srila Narottama Däsa Thakura) The whole process of Krsna consciousness is coming from the kingdom of God, it’s completely pure and the activities are pure. You know your senses, our senses may not be pure but activities, bonafide activities in devotional service as authorised by the disciplic succession, those activities are pure, and if we perform those activities, if we have that contact with Krsna through His devotional service, then our senses and our mind and everything becomes pure. So gradually although initially we start on the offensive level of chanting but if we apply ourselves sincerely then Prabhupada’s intention was that by the time the person comes to the level of first initiation, they should be able to maintain, this clearing stage means chanting inoffensively. Ya… they would have made advancement and become purified to some extent just to be able to do that, that’s quite quickly. Ya, so that is the principle, even though we are filthy in terms of karmic reactions and all that, but by associating with the pure, then we become purified. Is that ok?
Jai, Srila Prabhupada Ki Jai!
Posted under Transcribed Lectures
The Ten Offences, Day 2, Durban, South Africa
The universes looked like they were going to bounce of his head and just be lost. That would have been a problem, but they were trying to restrain them but they couldn’t restrain them. He was just so overwhelmed in ecstasy. But fortunately, the universes didn’t get lost. Anyway, then the next chapter, is about the “Prayers of Madhai”. “The prayers of Madhai”, Madhai, Jagai and Madhai, they got love of God, and everything was forgiven but, and they were simply chanting and dancing in ecstasy, going everywhere with Lord Caitanya. But they would from time to time, they would remember, that “wow, what we did!”, “what we did!” and particularly Madhai, who was the actual one who attacked Lord Nityananda, he would remember, “what I did!” and it would become too much and he would just collapse, just crying and lamenting and it came to such a point that he was constantly in this state, just constantly crying and lamenting, that “I attacked Lord Nityananda, what sort of demon, what sort of demon am I”.
So then one day, he met Lord Nityananda and he appealed to him for forgiveness, he had already done that, but you know again like more deeply. So there are some prayers then, Madhai’s prayers and I thought I could just read them and there is a benediction. Read the rest of this entry »
Posted under Transcribed Lectures
The Ten Offences, Day 1 Continued, Durban, South Africa
We’re going to talk as we go on, about different aspects of the holy name and so on and the potency of the holy name, so that will come up more when we get to the 5th offence, 6th offence, like that, how powerful the holy name is. Okay, so now we are still going through the 1st offence. Read the rest of this entry »
Posted under Transcribed Lectures
The Ten Offences, Day 1, Durban, South Africa
om namo bhagavate vasudevaya.
om namo bhagavate vasudevaya
om namo bhagavate vasudevaya
We are very happy to be here with you all, taking part in our Easter courses again, very, very nice experience and very nice opportunity for all of us to share together in Krishna Consciousness. We have rather amusing chairs this is just when anyone is falling asleep we just do a trick on the chair and people will wake up.
So, we are going to be doing a course about the 10 offences in the chanting of the holy names, just in case any of you are falling asleep already. Oh that’s better, okay that will do, that’s good, okay. Read the rest of this entry »
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12-08-2011, SB 11.20.4, Understanding What is Good and What is Bad, Durban, South Africa
vedac caknus tavecvara
creyas tv anupalabdhe ‘rthe
pita—of the forefathers; deva—of the demigods; manunyaeam—of the human beings; vedau—the Vedic knowledge; caknuu—is the eye; tava—emanating from You; ecvara—O Supreme Lord; creyau—superior; tu—indeed; anupalabdhe—in that which cannot be directly perceived; arthe—in the goals of human life, such as sense gratification, liberation, and attainment of heaven; sadhya-sadhanayou—both in the means and the end; api—indeed.
My dear Lord, in order to understand those things beyond direct experience—such as spiritual liberation or attainment of heaven and other material enjoyments beyond our present capacity—and in general to understand the means and end of all things, the forefathers, demigods and human beings must consult the Vedic literatures, which are Your own laws, for these constitute the highest evidence and revelation. Read the rest of this entry »
Posted under Transcribed Lectures
26-09-2012 SB 8.22.1-2 Lessons From Lord Vamana, Midrand, South Africa
Hare Krishna, Thank you very much for coming, it’s very nice to be here with you all. Today is Sri Vamana Dvadasi. We hope you have had a nice Vamana Dvadasi observed as Ekadasi, but the appearance day of Lord Vamana and it’s really a wonderful pastime of the Lord and extremely instructive in different ways.
Incidentally can you all hear because this is now, it’s now pointed towards me actually, this speaker? Is it okay? No problem. Alright, so let’s just carry on. Read the rest of this entry »
Posted under Transcribed Lectures
Caitanya Caritamrta, Adi-lila Chapter 8
Durban, South Africa, April 15, 2012
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Jaya jaya sri-caitanya jaya nityananda
Devotees: Jaya jaya sri-caitanya jaya nityananda
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Jayadvaita-candra jaya gaura-bhakta-vrnda
Devotees: Jayadvaita-candra jaya gaura-bhakta-vrnda
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Today we are continuing with the kirtan festival, chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra. Sri Hare Krsna maha-mantra ki –
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: So we were asked this morning to read something and say something about the subject of the chanting of the holy names. So what we will do, we will read from Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, Adi-lila Chapter 8 – The Author Receives the Orders of Krsna and Guru – and we will read a number of verses. We will read through a lot of the chapter actually because the chapter in many ways is dealing with the subject of chanting the holy names. So let us do like that.
vande caitanya-devam tam
prasabham nartyate citram
lekha-range jado ‘py ayam
[Cc. Adi 8.1]
“I offer my respects to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, by whose desire I have become like a dancing dog and suddenly taken to the writing of Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, although I am a fool.”
jaya jaya sri-krsna-caitanya gauracandra
jaya jaya paramananda jaya nityananda
[Cc. Adi 8.2]
“Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is known as Gaurasundara. I also offer my respectful obeisances unto Nityananda Prabhu, who is always very joyful.”
jaya jayadvaita acarya kṛpamaya
jaya jaya gadadhara pandita mahasaya
[Cc. Adi 8.3]
“Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto Advaita Acarya, who is very merciful, and also to that great personality Gadadhara Pandita, the learned scholar.”
jaya jaya srivasadi yata bhakta-gana
pranata ha-iya vandon sabara carana
[Cc. Adi 8.4]
“Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto Srivasa Thakura and all the other devotees of the Lord. I fall down to offer them respect. I worship their lotus feet.”
muka kavitva kare yan-sabara smarane
pangu giri langhe, andha dekhe tara-gane
[Cc. Adi 8.5]
“By remembering the lotus feet of the Panca-tattva, a dumb man can become a poet, a lame man can cross mountains, and a blind man can see the stars in the sky.”
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Now there’s a series of verses, very strong verses, describing the faulty positions of people who do not accept Lord Caitanya and the Panca-tattva.
e-saba na mane yei pandita sakala
ta-sabara vidya-paṭha bheka-kolahala
[Cc. Adi 8.6]
“The education cultivated by so-called learned scholars who do not believe these statements of Sri Caitanya Caritamrta is like the tumultuous croaking of frogs.”
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: So there you go, all the PhDs, Nobel Peace Prize winners, big authors, intellectuals, etc.etc. out the window, gone. That’s the end of them.
ei saba na mane yeba kare krsna-bhakti
krsna-krpa nahi tare, nahi tara gati
[Cc. Adi 8.7]
“One who does not accept the glories of the Panca-tattva but still makes a show of devotional service to Krsna can never achieve the mercy of Krsna or advance to the ultimate goal.”
purve yaiche jarasandha-adi raja-gana
veda-dharma kari‘ kare visnura pujana
[Cc. Adi 8.8]
“Formerly kings like Jarasandha [the father-in-law of Kamsa] strictly followed the Vedic rituals, thus worshiping Lord Visnu.”
krsna nahi mane, tate daitya kari‘ mani
caitanya na manile taiche daitya tare jani
[Cc. Adi 8.9]
“One who does not accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is certainly a demon. Similarly, anyone who does not accept Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as Krsna, the same Supreme Lord, is also to be considered a demon.”
more na manile saba loka habe nasa
ithi lagi‘ krpardra prabhu karila sannyasa
[Cc. Adi 8.10]
“Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu thought, “Unless people accept Me they will all be destroyed.” Thus the merciful Lord accepted the sannyasa order.”
sannyasi-buddhye more karibe namaskara
tathapi khandibe duhkha, paibe nistara
[Cc. Adi 8.11]
“If a person offers obeisances to Me, even due to accepting Me only as an ordinary sannyasi, his material distresses will diminish, and he will ultimately get liberation.”
hena krpamaya caitanya na bhaje yei jana
sarvottama ha-ileo tare asure ganana
[Cc. Adi 8.12]
“One who does not show respect unto this merciful Lord, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, or does not worship Him should be considered a demon, even if he is very much exalted in human society.”
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: So there they go, all the worshippers of this deva and devi, followers of this or that program of religions, spiritualism – whatever, whatever. All of them, along with all the intellectuals and PhDs and so on – they also, they join them – out the window, gone.
ataeva punah kahon urdhva-bahu hana
caitanya-nityananda bhaja kutarka chadiya
[Cc. Adi 8.13]
“Therefore I say again, lifting my arms: O fellow human beings, please worship Sri Caitanya and Nityananda without false arguments!”
yadi va tarkika kahe, — tarka se pramana
tarka-sastre siddha yei, sei sevyamana
[Cc. Adi 8.14]
“Logicians say, “Unless one gains understanding through logic and argument, how can one decide upon a worshipable Deity?””
sri-krsna-caitanya-daya karaha vicara
vicara karite citte pabe camatkara
[Cc. Adi 8.15]
“If you are indeed interested in logic and argument, kindly apply it to the mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. If you do so, you will find it to be strikingly wonderful.”
bahu janma kare yadi sravana, kirtana
tabu ta‘ na paya krsna-pade prema-dhana
[Cc. Adi 8.16]
“If one is infested with the ten offences in the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting.”
krsna yadi chute bhakte bhukti mukti diya
kabhu prema-bhakti na dena rakhena lukaiya
[Cc. Adi 8.18]
“If a devotee wants liberation or material sense gratification from the Lord, Krsna immediately delivers it, but pure devotional service He keeps hidden.”
hena prema sri-caitanya dila yatha tatha
jagai madhai paryanta — anyera ka katha
[Cc. Adi 8.20]
“Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has freely given this love of Krsna everywhere and anywhere, even to the most fallen, such as Jagai and Madhai. What then to speak of those who are already pious and elevated?”
svatantra isvara prema-nigudha-bhandara
bilaila yare tare, na kaila vicara
[Cc. Adi 8.21]
“Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, is fully independent. Therefore, although it is the most confidentially stored benediction, He can distribute love of Godhead to anyone and everyone without consideration.”
adyapiha dekha caitanya-nama yei laya
krsna-preme pulakasru-vihvala se haya
[Cc. Adi 8.22]
“Whether he is offensive or inoffensive, anyone who even now chants sri-krsna-caitanya prabhu-nityananda is immediately overwhelmed with ecstasy, and tears fill his eyes.”
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: So, please repeat after me. Sri Krsna Caitanya!
Devotees: Sri Krsna Caitanya!
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Prabhu Nityananda!
Devotees: Prabhu Nityananda!
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Thank you, thank you, thank you.
‘nityananda‘ balite haya krsna-premodaya
aulaya sakala anga, asru-ganga vaya
[Cc. Adi 8.23]
“Simply by talking of Nityananda Prabhu one awakens his love for Krsna. Thus all his bodily limbs are agitated by ecstasy, and tears flow from his eyes like the waters of the Ganges.”
‘krsna-nama‘ kare aparadhera vicara
krsna balile aparadhira na haya vikara
[Cc. Adi 8.24]
“There are offences to be considered while chanting the Hare Krsna mantra. Therefore simply by chanting Hare Krsna one does not become ecstatic.”
‘eka‘ krsna-name kare sarva-papa nasa
premera karana bhakti karena prakasa
[Cc. Adi 8.26]
“Simply chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra without offences vanquishes all sinful activities. Thus pure devotional service, which is the cause of love of Godhead, becomes manifest.”
premera udaye haya premera vikara
[Cc. Adi 8.27]
“When one’s transcendental loving service to the Lord is actually awakened, it generates transformations in the body such as perspiration, trembling, throbbing of the heart, faltering of the voice and tears in the eyes.”
anayase bhava-kṣaya, krsnera sevana
eka krsna-namera phale pai eta dhana
[Cc. Adi 8.28]
“As a result of chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, one makes such great advancement in spiritual life that simultaneously his material existence terminates and he receives love of Godhead. The holy name of Krsna is so powerful that by chanting even one name, one very easily achieves these transcendental riches.”
hena krsna-nama yadi laya bahu-bara
tabu yadi prema nahe, nahe asrudhara
tabe jani, aparadha tahate pracura
krsna-nama-bija tahe na kare ankura
[Cc. Adi 8.29-30]
“If one chants the exalted holy name of the Lord again and again and yet his love for the Supreme Lord does not develop and tears do not appear in his eyes, it is evident that because of his offences in chanting, the seed of the holy name of Krsna does not sprout.”
caitanya-nityanande nahi esaba vicara
nama laite prema dena, vahe asrudhara
[Cc. Adi 8.31]
“But if one only chants, with some slight faith, the holy names of Lord Caitanya and Nityananda, very quickly he is cleansed of all offences. Thus as soon as he chants the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, he feels the ecstasy of love for God.”
nama om visnu-padaya krsna-presthaya bhu-tale
srimate bhaktivedanta-svamin iti namine
namas te sarasvate deve gaura-vani-pracarine
Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: We continue with the kirtan festival today. Please bear these words in mind. The process, the process of Krsna consciousness, the only process of dharma of any sort which will work, which will be effective in this kali-yuga, is – harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha.
This is a very famous verse from Brhan-Naradiya Purana. It appears in Caitanya Caritamrta, in the context of Lord Caitanya accepting initiation from Ishvara Puri. We talked about this in Phoenix, on Friday evening. Lord Caitanya, to set an example for us foolish conditioned souls – then to say we are foolish is almost praising us actually, practically hopeless conditioned souls.
So Lord Caitanya, to set an example for us and acting as if He was one of us, of course He was, He is never one of us – He’s always the Absolute Supreme Personality of Godhead. When He received initiation from Ishvara Puri, then He enquired from His Guru Maharaj, “What should I do now? Now I am initiated – what are My duties?” and He actually suggested, “Perhaps, should I study Vedanta philosophy and, and just absorb my mind in that?” What, is actually extremely dry and almost torturous philosophy. It’s abstruse in the extreme. Just, it’s too much. It’s too much anytime but in kali-yuga it’s much too much but, still it is a practise – even today it’s a practise amongst the impersonalist.
The impersonalist like we read about the materialistic intellectuals; then we read about the foolish people; the materialistic intellectuals are also fools but, then the people who are not intellectual fools, they are just plain fools, sort of common garden variety fools, who do this type of puja and that type of worship and some ritual, or follow some tradition or some other tradition or some popular religion, and think they are just doing fine. So the impersonalists, as Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami condemned, in no uncertain terms, the materialistic intellectuals and these sorts of miscellaneous worshippers of whoever and whatever. There are many different processes these people follow, going under the headings of the popular religions of the day, so they were condemned by Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami as demons, daitya. He used the term daitya twice. Daitya means demon. Daitya specifically refers to a particular type of demon or, or group of demons. They are the children of Diti. There’s Aditi and Diti. They were the wives of Kashyapa and they are described in detailed here in Srimad Bhagavatam. Aditi became the mother of the demigods, particularly Indra, but many, many of the demigods and then Diti –
Sri Sri Radha Radhanatha, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Sri Giri Govardan ki –
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Then Diti became the mother of the demons. She is the mother of, amongst numerous other outstanding demons, the most outstanding of all demons – Hiranyakashipu and Hiranyaksha. So they are called, they are the daityas – Hiranyakashipu, Hiranyaksha and then various others also, like the leading demons. So it’s interesting, Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami does not just say they are asuras, ungodly people – which is more commonly used for staunchly materialistic people who are anti-God and so on like that; opposed to God and particularly opposed to Krsna. So he didn’t say “asura”. He said that, “they are daityas, these people are daityas”– it’s like it’s referring ultimately to that very sort of foundational group, the forefathers’ original demons. So it’s heavy language.
So the impersonalists are also included in that and Lord Caitanya, when He received initiation, acting as an ordinary person, He enquired from Isvara Puri, “Should I do this, speculate on Vedanta philosophy and, and get together with other people and discuss, or, my ideas and their ideas, what we all think it all means?” Because as we said, it’s so abstruse – that’s very difficult to understand what it means and it can be construed in many ways and someone who’s clever in argument can establish many different understandings – so-called understandings of even one verse in Vedanta.
So Lord Caitanya enquired like that and Isvara Puri said, “No, don’t you do that. Don’t you waste your time.” And he then quoted this verse; we just quoted a few minutes ago, “harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha.” One must chant the holy names, chant the holy names, chant the holy names, in this age of kali there’s no other way, no other way, no other way – gatir, gatir anyatha – to achieve the goal in this age of kali.
There is another verse, related verse, which actually appears. It’s a verse from Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami, “ei kali-kale ara nahi kona dharma vaisnava, vaisnava-sastra, ei kahe marma.”
In this age of kali there is no dharma, there is no religion. There’s simply the vaisnavas and the vaisnava-sastras and that is the sum and substance of everything.
So, such strong language. So anyway, Isvara Puri told Lord Caitanya just chant, just chant, just chant. He spoke that verse which emphasizes it – just really completely emphasizes it. So this is the process in kali-yuga, this is the process – to chant the holy names and therefore in Krsna Consciousness. Srila Prabhupada, he gave us this, the whole process of Krsna Consciousness which, of course, is multi-facetted. There are so many different activities we do and, and so many aspects to Krsna Consciousness but Srila Prabhupada, following in the footsteps of Lord Caitanya perfectly. Srila Prabhupada, he emphasized the chanting of the holy names, for example, the other day we had an initiation ceremony and, as in any initiation ceremony, the initiates take vows. One positive vow and four negative vows: Chant sixteen rounds a day, “Hare Krsna maha-mantra” everyday – one positive vow; and no meat eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex, like no gambling – four negative vows.
So some people may say, and some people do say that, “Oh, you are negative.” This is negative. It is more focusing on the negative and not on the positive. But actually that is inaccurate – it’s not, not correct. Actually, that one positive outweighs is so much more important than the four negatives that even a person who is not maintaining the four negatives, but somehow is maintaining the one positive, are really regularly chanting and trying to chant. Gradually in due course they will be able to overcome the four negatives.
So chanting the holy names as, as a practise – as part of our program for becoming Krsna Conscious, it really is in a class of its own and it is the main activity. So, so Lord Caitanya took it up and we were mentioning in Phoenix, because He chanted without offences, Lord Caitanya therefore immediately –ecstatic symptoms – came to the point that He was just totally overwhelmed, because he was chanting without any offences.
For us to chant without offences, at least from day one of our chanting that, that is not easy. There are ten offences in the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, specifically at the time. Well the other day, what was it? Sunday? Some devotees also received second initiation – they received gayatri mantras. There are also offences in the chanting of gayatri. In fact, it is more susceptible to offence than chanting Hare Krsna. Therefore devotees are only given gayatri mantras, or even made aware of what they are, at the time of second initiation, when they should be and they generally are, are much more strongly situated in Krsna Consciousness than right at the beginning. So, because of the offences, the sensitivity to offences, in the matter of chanting gayatri – therefore it is only given later on to devotees who are already more established in Krsna Consciousness. So, but in the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, there are those ten offences and we emphasize the importance of avoiding those ten offences on a very regular bases. For example, here in the morning program, in this Temple, then every morning following the Nrsinga prayers, we recite all the ten offences every day, seven days a week, 365 days a year because its, it’s so important in the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra. However, here in these verses, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami has made a very interesting and extremely important point about chanting. That is, that in the chanting of the names of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda, and in the chanting of the names of the Panca-tattva, the Panca-tattva maha-mantra
there are no offences, meaning even if you are offensive but your offences are not counted as offences, when you chant that mantra or the name of Lord Caitanya, name of Lord Nityananda. Even though you may actually commit offences, then one count it as offences and therefore one of verses that we read said that, “if one chants the names of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda offensively or inoffensively, one may well find that tears come to the eyes and powerful symptoms of ecstasy surge through the body.” This is very amazing. This is very wonderful, therefore it is recommended to say the least. It is emphasized and, and actually, the very last verse that we read was emphasizing that because there are offences in the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, therefore you should chant, you must chant, the names of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda, the names of the Panca-tattva before you chant Hare Krsna. That will take care of your offences, wipe them out and then you can chant Hare Krsna and, if you do it nicely, then your chanting of Hare Krsna will be good and effective and you will experience similar feelings of transcendental benefit from your chanting of Hare Krsna. Otherwise, as we read bahu janma, how does it go?? bahu janma, not a verse I know well but, anyway bahu janma kare yadi sravana, kirtana …seeing if I can’t find it, how does that go? bahu janma kare yadi sravana, kirtana…
bahu janma kare yadi sravana, kirtana
tabu ta‘ na paya krsna-pade prema-dhana
“If one is infested with the ten offences in the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of his chanting.”
Krsna Consciousness is a science. It is not just some sort of – in one sense it is very simple but in another sense it is very deep and scientific and Srila Prabhupada referred to it as a science – the science of self realization on many occasions and one needs to develop these understandings. Otherwise, if one remains too simple, over-simplified, as a person, and for example, thinking, “oh, you can chant any name and the name Krsna. Oh, that’s okay – it’s the same.” This is over simplified, you’ve lost. You have simplified to the point you have lost some of the content and you lost some of what you need. It’s like over simplifying your body and you now don’t have any arms – your body has become over simplified, so it’s not going to work. So, no process is going to work of this religion, that religion. No process, particularly in kali-yuga, no process is going to work at least to the point that you can go back to Godhead if you chant the holy names? Seems this is missing, if you don’t chant the holy names and if you don’t chant the holy names without offences and you can only chant the holy names without offences if you worship Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda and chant:
As a result of this, on the bases of this very important vital point, some devotees say that, “why then are we chanting Hare Krsna because there are offences, and you may commit some of offences? Because its kali-yuga and we are conditioned and it is not easy so, so why chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra? Why not, instead of sixteen rounds of Hare Krsna, why not sixteen rounds of…
In one sense it is not a bad idea, however in a more substantial sense, Srila Prabhupada make a point and, our Acaryas make a point, that Lord Caitanya Himself, setting the example for us, He chanted Hare Krsna and He taught chanting Hare Krsna, and He taught, He stressed, He emphasized, extremely powerfully and repeatedly and repeatedly chanting Hare Krsna, the Hare Krsna maha-mantra.
So, so we therefore must chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra. However, as the author says here, before chanting, we must chant the names of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda – we must chant the Panca-tattva maha-mantra then we will be able to chant the Hare Krsna nicely otherwise, bahu janma kare yadi sravana, kirtana etc. Otherwise you can go on bahu janma many lifetimes chanting and you won’t achieve that love of God. So, this is a subtlety but it is a completely essential subtlety in the understanding of reality; in the understanding of religion; in the understanding of Krsna Consciousness.
It is a subtlety but it is totally essential if success is to possibly meet or even if one is to make more than just a little advancement really towards success, this chanting of the holy names of the Panca-tattva.
Another subtlety, another subtlety in Caitanya Caritamrta, Lord Caitanya emphasizes on the basis that “harer nama harer nama…” verse, He emphasizes all you need to do is chant “Hare Krsna”. That’s all you need to do. However, in the purport of that particular verse, Srila Prabhupada gives very extensive purport quoting Jiva Goswami in Bhakti Sandarbha to show that the real purport of what Lord Caitanya is saying is, all you have to do is chant Hare Krsna without offences and you have to chant Hare Krsna without offences otherwise, you to try to just only chant Hare Krsna and you will end up in the bahu janma kare yadi position many, many lifetimes.
You may just go on, and on, and on, and on trying to do your chanting of Hare Krsna but no prema-dhana – you want to receive that gift of love of God. So, therefore Srila Prabhupada, based on Jiva Goswami’s explanation in Bhakti Sandarbha, Srila Prabhupada makes the point that in order to come to the point of chanting Hare Krsna offenselessly, one has to become purified. How does one become purified? Through deity worship and, deity worship, in order to do real deity worship, like serious deity worship which is going to be effective, one has to be initiated and including what we refer to as second initiation. Without that, you cannot actually do that most substantial form of deity worship.
So, that also has to be there, it has to be there. So, this is another subtlety in the understanding of Krsna Consciousness. But first and foremost we have to chant the holy names without offences and in order to be able to that, in order to become able to do that, we have to chant the holy names of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda, the holy names of the Panca-tattva, and then chant Hare Krsna.
Bhakti Caitanya Swami and Devotees: Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Hare Krsna. Any comment or question? Oh yes – ek minute. Your voice is loud enough.
Madhumangal Prabhu: Maharaj, right in the beginning you were talking about if anyone does not accept Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu or Nityananda as Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then that person is a demon. So then I was just thinking to myself, that every time a guy goes out preaching to people and some of them are Christian, Muslim and they don’t accept Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu as Krsna or as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, can they be considered as demons?
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Madhumangal Prabhu is asking the question that we read Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami, who is one of the great, great authorities, one of the greatest authorities in history in the universe. He says that anyone who does not accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is a demon and anyone who doesn’t accept Lord Caitanya as Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is also demon.
So what about the religionist and you know the, this one and that one that, that we meet that you know, that they just, there are many of them around. Does that mean there are demons? Well, I think that is what Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami said, so you know if you analyze their lives. Like one of Srila Prabhupada’s complaints about Mahatma Gandhi, Prabhupada didn’t take Mahatma Gandhi seriously, spiritually – like his understanding of what people should do in terms of religion; seriously and one thing Prabhupada said about Mahatma Gandhi was that Mahatma Gandhi encouraged, “let everyone practise their religion, including the Muslims” and he did, he went on one of his big fasts because there were some people attacking Muslims or something like that. So, Prabhupada made the point, their religion includes killing cows and so, Prabhupada, on a number of occasions, made the point about Mahatma Gandhi, that his understanding is just so lacking that he said, “Let them kill cows, it’s okay.” So, if you analyze their programs and activity, their understandings, you’ll see that they are doing for example, like that particular activity, something which is among the most, if not the most, but at least among, well up there, among the most sinful activities. It really is and we try to explain it to them and in many cases it’s like, “No, its fine. What are you talking about?”
You may have heard, I don’t know if you heard, it was a long time ago in Cape Town, there is, on the University campus, our BYS (Be-Your-Self) was developing strongly. It was, we was amazed. It was one of the top ten societies on the campus and then, you know back in those days, they made it just being only whites, you know, but it was one of the top ten in terms of many number of members and there were quite a few people from Jewish backgrounds, who students, who became members and they got involved and the people from the Jewish Students Society, they got upset, “we are losing our members.” So, they went to the chief Rabbi in Cape Town and, you know, and explained the situation and got in to make a statement against the Hare Krsna.
So, his statement was against vegetarianism that, his statement was, it was bizarre. It was a printed sort of thing they were distributing that it is natural to eat meat, natural you should do it. Not only is it okay but you should, and because it is natural to eat meat, it is unnatural not to eat meat and if you do something unnatural then it won’t work and it’s just, you know, try to push a square peg into a round hole, it’s just, it’s a battle and it just doesn’t work and it’s just a frustration. So, if you don’t eat meat you will become frustrated because it’s unnatural and, and he gave the example of a spring – you know, a spring you can press, a spring, and then you just let it go and it just springs out very strongly, you know. It can hurt people. So he said that, “if you don’t eat meat you will become frustrated and it will build up and then it will just come out of you, burst out of you, in sort-of like exaggerated, perverted form and you will end up eating human beings.” (laughter) And, you know, many of the students understood in this, is just, he’s lost it here, lost the plot.
So, so this is the problem, part of the problem, that in the name of their, of their religion, they remain attached to even, to the point where they may propagate certain, very simple activities, which Krsna is very sensitive about. He really doesn’t appreciate and then, and then sort of on the other hand you could say they also become antagonistic at least, they don’t accept and in some cases they become antagonistic, even violently antagonistic to Krsna and Krsna Consciousness and the devotees, even to the point of physical violence, this is going on. So, we accept what Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami says. Having said that, there are different levels of non devotees and some, even though you know they are definitely not devotees and they, you know, are doing things which Krsna really, really doesn’t appreciate but still, if you present things in a suitable way, they will get it and then they start to change their lives and, and truly become devotees. So, it’s like that.
Madhumangal Prabhu: Excuse me, the reason why I was asking this question, I think it was yesterday or the day before yesterday, I was talking about Allen Ginsberg and I was talking about when you hear the holy names, when you chant the holy names, the Lord will benefit the devotee. Sometimes when you hear the holy name even if, someone who is not a pure devotee or devotee then Krsna give you an example of Allen Ginsberg. The reason why I am talking about Allen Ginsberg, because – no I know the reason man, he was a materialistic person but Prabhupada liked him very much and…[missing words] but Prabhupada asked him to chant Hare Krsna…[missing words]
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: You see the thing is, the question is – Allen Ginsberg who was a famous poet in America. He was sort of – in business, you know, he was very attached to many materialistic activities but Prabhupada had him chant even publically, lead kirtan in public, in Prabhupada’s presence. So, why if he was a materialist and impersonalist? Because Prabhupada could see that despite his material, materialistic conditioning, he had enough of a spark of Krsna Consciousness that it would not, you know, be counterproductive having him lead the chanting. That’s the idea.
Devotees: Hare Krsna.
Bhakti Caitanya Swami: Srila Prabhupada ki –
Posted under Transcribed Lectures
Transcription of a lecture given in Sri dham Mayapur on February 7th 2012.
vidhaya krtyam hradini-jalapluta
dattvodakam bhartur udara-karmanah
natva divi-sthams tridasams trih paritya
vivesa vahnim dhyayati bhartr-padau
TRANSLATION: After this, the Queen executed the necessary funerary functions
and offered oblations of water. After bathing in the river, she offered
obeisances to various demigods situated in the sky in the different
planetary systems. She then circumambulated the fire and, while thinking of
the lotus feet of her husband, entered its flames.
PURPORT: The entrance of a chaste wife into the flames of the pyre of her
dead husband is known as saha-gamana, which means “dying with the husband.”
This system of saha-gamana had been practiced in Vedic civilization from
time immemorial. Even after the British period in India this practice was
rigidly observed, but soon it degraded to the point that even when the wife
was not strong enough to enter the fire of her dead husband, the relatives
would force her to enter. Thus this practice had to be stopped, but even
today there are still some solitary cases where a wife will voluntarily
enter the fire and die with her husband. Even after 1940 we personally knew
of a chaste wife who died in this way. [End of Srila Prabhupada's purport to
HH Bhakti Caitanya Swami: So this is queen Arci on the departure of her most
exalted husband, saktyaves-avatara husband, Maharaja Prthu. Actually the
next verse i just noticed doesn’t have a purport but let me just read it.
TRANSLATION: After observing this brave act performed by the chaste wife
Arci, the wife of the great King Prthu, many thousands of the wives of the
demigods, along with their husbands, offered prayers to the Queen, for they
were very much satisfied. [SB 4.23.23]
HH Bhakti Caitanya Swami: So certainly a very brave act Some years ago,
maybe fifteen years ago or so or twenty years even we met one gentleman on a
train here in India travelling from Jaipur to Delhi and I still remember
quiet vividly he was a older man – business type person and we were talking
about things and somehow this subject came up and he very noticeably, very
proudly told me that his mother was a sati. This is another term which is
used. Here in the purport Srila Prabhupada uses the term saha-gamana – dying
with the husband or literally going with him, saha-gamana – going with him.
So this gentleman made a point of telling us that his mother was a sati. It
is a very brave act. Certainly some of us here, perhaps some of the ladies
having heard the verse and purport this idea may have occurred to you, “What
about me?” It maybe a little amusing in one sense but it is not really. It
is a very serious thing. Such a serious thing! This brave act of the chaste
Then the wives of the demigods – and there were so many watching, thirty
three million or so. This means basically all the demigods are watching
because this is Maharaja Prthu who has just departed. He is not any sort of
ordinary person, not just any sort of big king but he is an incarnation of
the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So they are all watching. And then his
very exalted wife Arci enters the fire – saha-gamana – going with him. So
they didn’t offer prayers for her. They offered prayers to her because this
is something very extraordinary.
In Vedic culture, in Krishna conscious culture there are different
expectations of different people in different situations in life – male,
female varnas, asramas. There are different expectations or different duties
which are highly beneficial. They are highly beneficial. If one does those
duties nicely one goes back to Godhead. In this case here Arci – the idea of
saha-gamana – to go with him. And for grhasta ladies according to the Vedic
culture and as Srila Prabhupada says clearly in the purport this is really a
standard type of thing. Now of course it is Kali-yuga.
It is one thing if your husband is Maharaja Prthu or someone like Maharaja
Prthu. It is another thing being in Kali-yuga and the husband may just be
some relatively ordinary type of person or devotee facing his struggles in
trying to be a devotee and make some progress. And the wife has her own
problems. This is Kali-yuga. And to find that husband who is so inspiring
and just commands so much respect and commands in a very natural way so much
dedication and love – genuine affection and that genuine type of dedication
and very deep faithfulness. Well in Kali-yuga those husbands are rare – at
least it appears. Such husbands are rare and such wives like Arci or your
typical Krishna conscious Vedic wife – dharm-patni, such personalities are
Therefore as Srila Prabhupada also says in the purport to find ladies who
can do it. Not just – I remember in the Abhaya Charan DVD series there was
such an incident portrayed. Somebody’s husband died. They wanted to throw
the wife in the fire. She didn’t want to go and someone came and saved her
life I think. I forget the details. [Member of the audience says it was
Bhaktivinode Thakura.] Was it Bhaktivinode Thakura?
So yes Srila Prabhupada elsewhere looks into this subject a little more
deeply perhaps or a slightly different perspective. Srila Prabhupada says
that for the faithful, chaste, Krishna conscious Vedic wife who has the
faithful and dedicated and highly qualified Krishna conscious Vedic husband,
for her to lose the association of such a husband in her later years, in old
age – to lose that association Srila Prabhupada says that for her to
continue on living would be worse than dying. The separation for such a lady
from such a husband would be worse than dying.
Actually there is a short story by Srila Visvanatha Cakravati Thakura of
krsna-lila and it is you could say light hearted but in it is the snake of
Lord Siva comes to bite and kill Radharani, the daughter in law of Jatila.
And Abhimanyu is Radharani’s husband and the son of Jatila. Then snake who
is actually Krishna talking through the door to Jatila tells her this that,
“I want to cause you pain therefore I am going to kill your daughter in law
inside.” And the Jatila says, “Well you want to cause me pain why don’t you
just bite me and kill me?” And the snake says, “No, no, no! If I kill them
you will suffer much more for the rest of your life – another twenty or
thirty years or whatever. You will suffer much more than if I bite you right
now and if you just die. It will be just a matter of a few minutes or so. I
want to cause you pain because you have been blaspheming Krishna who is the
Lord of my Lord, Siva. So therefore to cause you the maximum pain i am going
to kill your daughter in law and your son.”
In this type of context of course as we said that is presented in a somewhat
light hearted context, but this is very serious context – for a quality
lady, dharm-patni to lose after many years of constant close association, to
lose the company of her highly qualified husband, dharm-pati, it would be
worse than death. So it would not be some sort of torture or some sort of
show of strength or character or something like that. It would just be a
relief for her to enter the funeral pyre and saha-gamana – to go with him.
The idea at least in so many cases is be born together in the next lifetimes
and be married again, together again and like that.
I remember quite some number of years ago we went on parikrama to a place in
Vraja Mandala called Uchagaon, the place of Lalita-devi and we met one young
girl there. She was like early teens at the most – cowherd girl and somehow
or the other she invited us to her house. So we went to her house. Her
mother was there and her mother gave us some chaas, buttermilk. So we sat
and had our buttermilk and then the mother told us, pointed to her daughter
and told us in sort of Hindi-Vrajbhasya, “She is a very good girl. She will
be a sati.” And this girl looked at her mother shocked. “Speak for yourself
if you want to!”
In this Kali-yuga what can we say! It is Kai-yuga and just to demand these
things or just to expect these things – well the times they have changed!
But it is a fact in general or at least in the Vedic context for women -
like we said there are different duties, expectations and different
standards for different people in Vedic society in terms of varnasrama, it
terms of male, female and so on. But certainly it is a fact that
traditionally according to Vedic standards for women this particular
qualification of faithfulness and chastity is really highly regarded and it
is a really foundational quality for a lady.
As ksatriyas must be bold and charitable and fearless and brahmanas must be
knowledgable and clean and so on and so forth. So women one of those just
basic features of character which is like a natural and valuable,
practically invaluable ornament of character for ladies is faithfulness. So
therefore traditionally for ladies to be faithful wives to their qualified
husbands and act very faithful and very attentive lovers to their children.
These are very important things.
Nowadays of course as we said it is Kali-yuga as we all know and life is
different. Even in my own childhood my mother never worked and many of the
mothers of my close school friends never worked. Nowadays of course it is
all part of the conspiracy of the wealthy people how to get more money out
of people. The people must have more money. Otherwise how can you get more
money out of them? Therefore everybody must work including the women. Behind
the scenes I would say it is almost a conscious conspiracy actually.
Certainly it is working in that way.
So nowadays – even I remember being present in my mid teens perhaps with my
mother and in some situations she was asked, “What is your occupation?’ And
she said, “Housewife.” She was a relatively educated woman. She had her
Masters degree but she said housewife – straight answer to a straight
question. Nowadays in so many cases the great majority of the ladies are
asked, “What is your occupation and she will say whatever. Some sort of
doctor, lawyer, engineer, business person, administration, something,
something, something. “And are you married?” “Yes.” So that comes second. Of
course men when they are asked, “What do you do?” They don’t say, “I am a
husband and a father.” They give their occupation.
I read something a little while ago – it was not a joke although it sounds a
little like a joke. It was quite serious. Some lady, more traditionally
minded perhaps in America presented some report on the internet. She had to
go to some government department to fill out some forms for some reason. So
the clerk interviewed her, “What is your name?” “Okay.” “What’s your date of
birth?” “Okay.” What is your address?” “Okay.” “What is your occupation?”
Housewife, wife and mother.” And the clerk looked at her in silence. “No. I
mean what do you do?” “I am a wife and a mother.” And the clerk said, “What
I mean is what is your occupation? What is your job?” At that point she got
frustrated and left – the woman who had written this report. But she had to
do whatever it was – fill out those forms.
So she went back later and met some other clerk and same process. “What is
your name?” “Okay.” “What’s your date of birth?” “Okay.” What is your
address?” “Okay.” “What is your occupation?” “Child development
technologist.” [Laughter] “Oh.Okay.” [Laughter.] Well it is Kali-yuga and it
just comes out in so many ways. But that faithfulness of the wife and mother
to not think – of course it depends of the nature of woman, of the person.
It depends on their nature and some may get involved in this or that but
still at least you can say as a type of bottom line if a woman has really
given herself to being a wife and a mother in Krishna consciousness it
doesn’t mean that she is automatically a second class citizen and it is a
just a sort of default position you fall back to if you can’t do anything
better. It is not like that at all.
To actually be a successful wife and mother and look after your husband and
care for him and protect him successfully – that’s valuable. And what to
speak of bringing up the children so that they become real devotees and
young men and women of quality. That is a major contribution to society and
not just like something second class. So it is Kali-yuga. We read in the
ninth canto that Lord Rama was such a husband to Sita. She was just sold out
to Him – just sold out! She just humbly served Him whatever He wanted and
She was such a wife that Lord Rama whatever She wanted, He would do anything
for Her. It wasn’t as they say sometimes that battle of the sexes. The man
feels that he should be the head of the family but the wife has other ideas.
She just sort of badgers him endlessly to get what she wants. These
Kali-yuga techniques! Keep on asking again and again and again ’til the
person snaps and just gives up, “All right you can have it. Just give me a
break.” But Lord Rama would facilitate Sita.
Srila Prabhupada makes the point in one of the purports here that Lord Rama
was such a dedicated husband that even He is the Supreme Personality of
Godhead and when Sita was kidnapped He could have done a number of things.
He is God. He could have stopped it. He could have stopped it! Of course He
could! He could have just wiped out Ravana on the spot by remote control. It
is absolutely no problem whatsoever, and just rescued Sita by remote
control. It is just the least of problems for the Supreme Lord. But actually
Lord Rama went through this long exercise and it was very painful and
millions of people died just to rescue Sita
He did not want to even take over Lanka and become the king or anything or
take all the money. He just wanted Sita. That is as simple as that.
Prabhupada makes that point that to show how faithful a husband He was in
Krishna consciousness or Rama consciousness he went through this whole
endeavour to rescue Her and kill Ravana. He could have just manifested
hundreds or millions of replacement Sitas on the spot. But He didn’t. He
made the effort to rescue Sita. To show when a person is a Krishna conscious
grhasta man and he has a truly faithful Krishna conscious wife that is an
So for the ladies in general to be faithful and not become distracted -
being faithful in this context means you don’t get distracted by first of
all other men and then by anything else actually – that even if your husband
is poor you live like that and serve nicely like that. This sort of
faithfulness is a very important quality in ladies.
As we heard earlier today is the appearance day of Srila Narottama Dasa
Thakura He was also extremely faithful in many ways but one particular
incident comes to mind. Narottama Dasa Thakura appeared in Kheturi which I
believe is in current day Bangaldesh. Eventually in his late youth or so he
went to Vrindavan and in Vrindavan he met Srila Jiva Goswami and took
shelter of him. Then he met Srila Lokanath Goswami and was very deeply
struck by the character of Lokanath Goswami and his standards as a devotee
and just who he was as a devotee. So Narottama Dasa Thakura in his heart
made up his mind, “I am going to accept Srila Lokanath Goswami as my
Then he approached him. However Lokanath Goswami had taken a vow even in
like a formal sense he had determined, resolved that, “I am not accepting
disciples. End of story! I am simply going to focus on my own Krishna
consciousness.” So Narottama Dasa Thakura approached Srila Lokanath Goswami
and appealed to him, “Please accept me as your disciple and initiate me.”
Lokananth Goswami laughed and refused and just made very little of it -
like, “I am not even going to think about it. I couldn’t even think of it so
just go find someone else.”
However Narottama Dasa Thakura his character was like that. He had made up
his mind. He had already given his heart internally and he was not just
about to go and chose another one. So he resolved that, “Despite this I am
going to live as a disciple in terms of my own lifestyle, my program of what
I do.” So what he did? Lokanath Goswami was living in the area where his
Samadhi and bhajan-kutir is at the Radha-Gokulananda Temple, not far from
the Yamuna on the sort of eastern end of Vrindavan town more or less. So
Lokanath Goswami was living there.
Every day he would get up and go down to the Yamuna, take bath and evacuate
etc. take bath and then come back and continue with his days activities.
Narottama Dasa Thakura would wait somewhere near but secretly watching and
when Lokanath Goswami had gotten up early in the morning and gone down to
the Yamuna, Narottama Dasa Thakura would come out and clean up around the
little sort of asram type place of Lokanath Goswami – make up the bedding
and clean up and so on and then go around another way down by the Yamuna and
when Lokanath Goswami finished all his bathing activities down there and
came back v would then come out of there and clean up down there. He would
clean up the stool etc.
This went on for one year. So after a year or so Lokanath Goswami was really
wondering, “Who is doing this. Everyday this is happening. Let me find out.”
So one day he went off to the Yamuna but then he came back quickly to see
who was doing it and sure enough he saw it was Narottama Dasa Thakura. So
then he came out and stopped him and asked him, “Why are you doing this? You
shouldn’t be doing this.” And Narottama Dasa Thakura just threw himself at
Lokanath Goswami’s feet and begged him that, “I have already accepted you
before as my spiritual master and I am just going to carry on doing this for
the rest of my life whether you accept me or not. So please be merciful and
Lokanath Goswami accepted him. So in that sense Srila Narottama Dasa Thakura
was extremely faithful and he was ready to go on for the rest of his life.
He has written one nice song. He is particularly well known for his songs.
We sing everyday Guruvandanam – sri-guru-carana-padma. We sing every day,
kevala bhakati-sadma, bando mui savadhana mate. Savadhana, you must be
careful, you must be cautious. Watch out! There is no other way to achieve
success in Krishna consciousness without taking shelter of the lotus feet of
the spiritual master. Narottama Dasa Thakura also wrote one other song about
Lokanath Goswami in which he is explaining these things that, “If you are
not merciful to me I actually can’t live.” And he means it. It is not just
some colourful little poetic expression. He actually feels like that.
So we also, this is particularly in one sense for the ladies but in another
sense it applies to all of us. We must all cultivate faithfulness to
Guru-Gauranga, Radha Krishna, Srila Prabhupada, to Iskcon, to the devotees.
We need to do that. That is a truly essential characteristic – feature of
character for all devotees. Of course as we have noted it is Kali-yuga.
Everyone sitting here knows it is not easy. Actually sometimes it is
extremely difficult but still we must do it even though it is Kali-yuga. By
the mercy of Lord Caitanya, by the mercy of the Panca-tattva, by the mercy
of Srila Prabhupada these things are possible.
There is a very nice little incident in Mahabharata, some of you may have
seen it or read of it. Bhima was waiting in the palace outside of one of the
rooms, outside of the main throne room of Maharaja Yudhisthira. Maharaja
Yudhisthira was on the throne. It was the hour of the day when anyone could
come to the king and present anything and the king would deal with it. So
Maharaja Yudhisthira was waiting for people and Bhima was outside in the
next entrance way, in the next room.
One man came and said to Bhima, “I have to see Yudhisthira. I have got a big
problem. I can’t figure it out.” Bhima said, “Oh. What is the problem?” The
man said, “I have got a vegetable garden and for security purposes I built a
wall around it but now the wall is moving – coming in on the vegetable
garden. And the wall is taking the vegetables. I can’t figure it out. How
can a wall do that?” Bhima said, “Shew! I don’t know. Go ask Yudhisthira.”
So the man went in to see Yudhisthira.
Then just like that another man came and said, “Oh big problem! I took some
water out – a bucket of water and I poured the water into five smaller
containers but then for some reason i poured the water back from the five
containers into the bucket. There was less water in the bucket. I poured all
the water into the five containers and all the water out back into the
bucket. There is less water. What is going on?” Bhima said, “Shew! I don’t
know. Go ask Yudhisthira.”
Then another man came and said, “I have got a problem. What a problem! I
have an elephant and we were walking along. We walked through a wall – the
elephant also. There is a hole in the wall. We walked through the wall but
the tail of the elephant got stuck in the hole. [Laughter] I can’t
understand it. What is going on?” Bhima said, “Shew! I don’t know. Go ask
Yudhisthira. He is good with these types of problems.”
Then a fourth man came and said, “You won’t believe what happened. I just
can’t understand it. There was a mountain over there, just a little way away
- a big pile of rocks, these like boulders and rocks all piled up a mountain
and no vegetation, just one little vine – small vine sticking out. I pulled
the vine. The whole mountain collapsed. The whole thing collapsed! Finished!
No mountain left. What is going on?” Bhima said, “Shew! You beat me. I can’t
figure it out. Go ask Yudhisthira.” So that fourth man went.
Bhima was waiting to hear from the men when they came out what solutions v
had given but none of them came out. Then he thought, “I am curious here. I
am going to go in and find out for myself.” So he went in. Yudhisthira was
just sitting there on his own. And Bhima said, “So what happened with those
four men? What did you tell them?” Yudhisthira said, “Four men? What four
men? Nobody came to see me so far. I am just sitting here on my own. Tell me
about these four men.”
So Bhima said, “First man: vegetable garden with wall about it but wall is
moving in and eating the vegetables.” Yudhisthira sat up. He said, “Really?
Tell me more.” “Second man: He had this bucket of water. Poured it into five
cups and poured it back. There was less water.” Yudhisthira sat up even
more, “Really? Tell me more.” “Third: he has go an elephant, went through
the hole in the wall with the elephant. The elephant’s tail got stuck in the
hole.” Yudhisthira sat up even more and said, “Get those men. Find them.
Catch them. Lock them up.”
Bhima was totally bewildered and he said, “What? What is going on here?
Please tell me.” And Yudhisthira said, “They are personifications of
Kali-yuga. But it is not Kali-yuga yet. It is still Dvarpara-yuga. So catch
them. Lock them up. Don’t let them loose now.” So then he explained, “The
man with the encroaching wall represents the leaders, the governments. They
are meant to protect the people from the thieves but they become the biggest
thieves. And then the bucket of water poured into the five cups but then you
get less back. That is like children in Kali-yuga. The parents put so much
effort into them and then when the children grow up they just go their own
ways and they don’t reciprocate and give some proper reciprocation to their
parents. Then the third man – the elephant goes through the hole in the
wall. It has to be a big hole, but his tail gets caught.” Yudhisthira said,
“In Kali-yuga all the big government people, business people, all these
people are big crooks but because they are so powerful they can get away
with it. And some little man does some little crime, some little fraud or
something, he gets caught and then there is a big story in the news paper,
‘Fraudster is caught’” Then Bhima said, “What about the fourth man who
pulled the creeper?” And Yudhisthira said, “Yes that is very good. He is
showing that in Kali-yuga even though it is a mountain of faults just with
one little thing – just chanting the hare Krishna maha mantra the whole
mountain of fault just collapses.” [Haribol! Applause.]
So Bhima was very satisfied with that. I think on this note we will just
finish. Srila Prabhupada Ki! Jai! [Applause]